Curio status of Artillery Stock

[mrerick]

I recently purchased a 1917 DWM Artillery Luger. It didn't have the shoulder stock.

I checked the ATF regulations which mention the following as a curio:

- - - - -

Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having chambers dated 1914 –1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks & accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.

- - - - -

Does this mean that addition of a reproduction shoulder stock will change the status of the Luger to a NFA firearm (no longer a Curio permitted under the class 03 license)?

Would addition of an original shoulder stock not serialized to the Luger be permitted?

Marc

[Edward Tinker]

A repro made to be just like an original is fine. AND even if you own a 4 inch luger, it is still legal to OWN a repro or original artillery stock (or even a navy stock), its just not legal to attach it.



Ed

[FNorm]

As I understand it, you can shoot an ORIGINAL artillery with a repro stock, but not a standard 4" barrel luger. Same with the navy as long as it was ORIGINALLY a Navy.

Am I wrong?

FN

[Ron Wood]

Ed is correct that a reproduction stock is legal so long as it closely approximates the original item in size and configuration. The usual restriction applies that you can't mix types; e.g. an arty needs an arty stock, a navy needs a navy stock, etc. I would add to Ed's comment about a 4 inch Luger. You may own a stock and a 4 inch Luger only if you also have another appropriate Luger to go with the stock. It is a fine point, but if you only own the stock and the 4 inch Luger, that constitutes the "intent" to construct a short barrel rifle even if you never attach it.

[alanint]

Ron is correct. This same nuance applies to other firearms, such as the AR series of rifles. You may own a less than 16" barrel or barreled upper and a standard AR15 as long as you also have either a registered machinegun or registered short barrel rifle somewhere under your ownership or control.

[mrerick]

Thank you all for your analysis on this. There's nothing like experience!!!!

Now to find an affordable stock for my 1917 DWM Arty!

Marc

[MFC]

Originally Posted by FNorm

As I understand it, you can shoot an ORIGINAL artillery with a repro stock, but not a standard 4" barrel luger. Same with the navy as long as it was ORIGINALLY a Navy.

So...If you are unlucky enough to unknowingly own a faked Navy and a stock, the BATF can make your life miserable.
Maybe we can get the BATF to authenticate Navies for us.

[Edward Tinker]

Well, I don't think I agree; intent is fine, but unless you are seen to ATTACH the stock to the 4 inch or wrong gun; it is hard for me to interpret it as intent...

But then maybe someone should ask this question to the BATF and get an official ruling?

Ed

[alanint]

Ed,
The official ruling from ATF is that they can basically do what they want. They have often and repeatedly interpreted their own rules to suit the case they are trying to make. They have often reversed their own rulings with little or no explanation.
If you have both parts, (i.e. a stock and you only own a 4" barrel pistol), that's intent, should they choose to prosecute you. Why own the stock if you don't have the correct pistol it goes to?
You could offer up logic about you being a collector and the stock came up for sale and you could not pass it up and you are currently looking for a correct artillery to match it to.....but ATF could not care less, should they choose to prosecute you.

The rule of thumb with ATF is give them as little as possible to arouse their interest in you. If you own the stock and a 4" barrel gun, keep them in separate places and inform as few people as possible that you own both.

[John Sabato]

I remember reading an article "many years ago" that included comments from an ATF agent about just this situation... Owning only 4" Lugers and any form of shoulder stock... the comment from the agent at the time was that possession would constitute "constructive intent" to build an unregistered Short Barreled Rifle (SBR).

It really isn't worth the risk to ME... if you only own 4" Lugers and you find a nice stock to go with an Artillery or Navy Luger that you hope to own one day... leave it with a relative, or best friend while you complete the ensemble...

[Edward Tinker]

If you are at your house and ATF is there looking through your things WITH a warrant; You have a heck of a lot more to worry about than a possible SBR violation.


Come on guys, lets get real here...

[alanint]

The thing is, Ed, they will latch onto ANYTHING they find if there is nothing else.
Say a neighbor who doesn't like you tells ATF he has seen you coming and going with all sorts of what appear to be illegal weapons, or say he told DEA that you have a hydroponics lab in the basement. They could even raid your house when they meant to go to the place next door. You have a fire and the firemen come across a bunch of stuff they feel they should report. It could even be a traffic stop with both items in your trunk.

They come, they find nothing, but, oh, wait a minute! What's this? a pistol,.......and a stock!!!
Whoever the LE force involved is, will then contact ATF who will swarm all over your pistol stock combo as if it were a live thermonuclear warhead.
Why take the risk??
I am aware of one poor slob up near Tampa who was given a goose gun with a dent in the barrel. He sawed the barrel of just below the dent and was confident he still had a legal, 18" barrel. Well he attracted the interest of ATF somehow and the barrel turned out to be something ludicrous like 1/16" too short. He was prosecuted, fined and did jail time. No previous record, no reason to attract attention other than ATF becoming aware of the gun.

The point is that ATF is basically a rogue agency that can mess your life up something awful should they choose to. They have admittedly gotten much better but I sleep better at night knowing I have NO violations to be thinking about...

[Mauser George]

Regarding a Artillery Luger board stock installed on something other than an artillery Luger, my guess it would go un noticed. When I say this, I am speaking relative to my area which is upstate New York and local gun shows.

I would say that if I installed a artillery board stock on a 4” Luger and put it on my table for display for a two day gun show, it would go 100% un noticed! That is unless a Luger collector happen to walk by and see it.

At the Syracuse, New York gun show 2 years ago there was an ATF Agent telling everyone that a C&R license was good for any C&R handgun in New York! When I questioned him in this regards, his response was that I didn’t know what I was speaking about! State overrules Federal in this case and this agent did not do his homework.

If ATF was paying you a visit, having a artillery board stock lying around would be the least of your worries!

George

[alanint]

Again, why the assumption that ATF will be paying you a visit? This is highly unlikely!

What is much more probable is that ATF is brought in after something else occurs, such as a house fire or traffic accident where firearms related things are turned up.
THEN, that pistol and stock will be the ONLY thing ATF has you on and they will run with it.
It won't be the least of your worries, it will be your ONLY worry!

[Mauser720]

It is my opinion that alanit is 100% correct on this issue.

I think I will share the following true story which illustrates the effort the BATF is willing to make in order to obtain a conviction:

Two men walk into a hardware store which sells guns. One loudly announces "I shouldn't even be in this place since I've had a little problem with domestic violence."

The other claims to be interested in a particular handgun. The clerk, an elderly woman in her late 70s processes the required instant criminal background check for the man, and makes sure he has filled out the required paperwork properly.

He then pays her for the handgun in cash.

The pair become frequent visitors to the hardware store, sometimes just visiting, but occasionally the man who bought the first pistol will buy another pistol, and always pay for it in cash.

This goes on for months and months, until finally the man has purchased perhaps 7 or 8 pistols, all after passing the instant background check, and always paying in cash.

But one day, this "buyer" discoveres he is short by $20.00 of the purchase price of the gun. So he turns to his friend and says "Hey Frank, can you loan me $20? I will give it back to you tonight."

Of course "Frank" is willing to loan his friend the $20 and the buyer leaves the store with the handgun.

Does this story sound innocent enough so far? Well, in fact, both of these customers are actually agents of the BATF.

And when the customer, who had become friends with the elderly woman, borrowed $20.00 from his friend, this constituted what the BATF refers to a "strawman purchase."

A "strawman purchase" exists when someone buys a firearm for someone else. In this case, the charge was that a man who was not authorized to buy a handgun, the alleged domestic abuse offender, actually paid for the handgun when he provided the $20.00 for the purchase.

Does this story sound "far fetched" to you?

Well, the BATF took the elderly woman to court, and her supervisor who was the owner of the hardware store. He was presumed guilty since he was her supervisor, although he did not even know that she had allowed the purchaser to borrow the $20 to complete the purchase. He was sentenced to 1 year and one day in prison, so that he would be ineligible for parole before a year had expired. She was sentenced to one year in prison.

The hardware store had to be closed while these two were in prison.

So did the elderly woman violate the law? Yes.

Did the BATF create a sting operation in which its own agents represented themselves to be just ordinary good guys looking to buy a handgun? Yes.

Did they befriend the elderly woman over a period of months before they sprang their trap? Yes. (Incidentally, when I talked with her before she went to prison, she told me "I thought those guys were my friends.")

Now ask yourself this question: If the BATF can make such a considerable effort in order to get a conviction, do you think they might also send agents to a gun range, or a gun show, or to respond to a gun for sale advertisement?

I agree with everyone else in this thread who has stressed how careful you need to be in any of your firearm collecting and/or selling activites.

[jussi16]

Hello.

I think it`s funny that you can buy, own and shoot a machine gun in the USA, but you can`t legally attach a wooden board on a luger pistol

I`d say that we have more strict gun laws here in Finland, but nothing is said about board stocks or about using them.

jussi

[DavidJayUden]

Jussi;
You are correct that our gun laws do not make sense, they, like so many other things in life, are a compromise reached by persons with their own agenda.
However you are not understanding all of the "stuff" that we have to go thru to own a machine gun. Some states still do not allow it at all. And a stocked pistol (other than old ones originally fitted with the stocks) are treated like machine guns.
In short, certain weapons such as machine guns, sawed off shotguns, stocked pistols, etc, are treated differently than a plain old rifle, pistol or shotgun, reguire special taxes to be paid, special background, special rules, etc.
It is confusing, and most of us US citizens still don't know it all.
dju