1,000 Lugers?

[JRS]

The latest edition of American Rifleman has an article about the Army's test guns in 1900 in an attempt to select an automatic pistol for adoption. It is stated that 1,000 Lugers in 7.65 mm and 475 Colts were delivered to the U.S. Cavalry for field tests.

The Army later decided that it wanted a larger bullet and settled on .45 caliber. To meet this demand, DWM submitted three Lugers in .45 caliber. When the Army asked for 200 more .45 caliber Lugers, the article states that Georg Luger declined and the Luger was out of the competition.

I am aware of the history of the three .45 caliber Lugers, but what happened to the original 1,000 Lugers in 7.65 mm? Are these the American Eagle "Loaded" and "Safe" Lugers I have seen referred to in this forum? If there were indeed 1,000 of these Lugers sent to the U.S. in 1900, surely some of them must still be around. What gives?

[Mike B]

Greetings,
You are getting into a very well discussed area of this forum. There are a couple of members of this forum who are true historians of these pistols. I feel certain Ron or Dwight will comment shortly. But just briefly, out of the 1000 .30 cal American Eagles that were purchsd for testing, only a small amout were returned. There were 775 or such sold at an auction somthing in the early 1900's and all were purchased by a gun dealer named Francis Bannerman. All of the serial numbers he purchased are recorded here on the forum and in several books. The Bannerman Lugers are the only ones consiered legit test Eagles. Fortunately, I own one of the Bannerman guns. There is much more to the story, but I am certain it will be forthcoming.

Mike

[Edward Tinker]

Yes, the FAQ discusses them, and there are many threads.

I am sure you will get some replies here, but there is a lot of discussion, it addition, Jan C Still's Central Powers discusses it with about 8 pages of detail and pictures.


ed

[Imperial Arms]

I have not read the latest edition of the American Rifleman, but it seems that the writer's explanation is wrong. Based on original copies of correspondence between Hans Tauscher and the War Department that I have in my archive, there was only ONE .45 Luger submitted for trials in 1907. That first model Luger was put to hard testing and likely discarded after the trials. There was no 'back-up' Luger provided during the same trials - that is misinformation which was caused by the small number '2' on the famous .45 Luger, which I do not believe is an actual serial number. It is probably an assembly line number because it is in the wrong place (under the sideplate) to be the main serial number of the pistol.

The other 2-3 surviving .45 Luger pistols are second variation models probably made in 1910-11. Around the same time, Mauser also made a test M1910 pistol in caliber .45 (no serial number and markings with an external 'brake') that had remained at the factory until the end of WWII. The so-called serial #2 .45 Luger pistol is one pistol that was given to Springfield Armory to tell the American Army 'look at the better final product (than the M1911 Colt pistol)'. A few years later, it was allowed to be sold because it was a pistol that was not used in any US Army trial. I am guessing that about 10-15 .45 Lugers were made by the DWM factory around the same time and afterwards sold commercially. I have strong information regarding the existence of two other genuine second variation .45 Lugers, one in the northeast region of the US and the other one in Germany or France. In the near future, I hope to receive an invitation to examine them.

The quest for knowledge continues....
Albert

[JRS]

I would guess that these are among the most collectible Lugers in existence. Since it would be a sin to shoot them, I don't think they would interest me -- not that I could even afford to buy one if it was available. My Lugers are shooters, and darn good ones at that. Thanks for the replies.

[drbuster]

Albert, if you are able to examine any of these .45 lugers I hope you will bring your camera with you (owner permitting) and share these valuable photos with us Forum folks.

[Jan C Still]

From page 413 of Central Powers Pistols:
"In June of 1910 it was recommended that they (1900 DWM US test Lugers) be sold as surplus and 780 were sold to Francis Bannerman for $10 each" by Ron Wood

Jan

[DavidJayUden]

"I would guess that these are among the most collectible Lugers in existence. Since it would be a sin to shoot them, I don't think they would interest me -- not that I could even afford to buy one if it was available. My Lugers are shooters, and darn good ones at that. Thanks for the replies. "

JRS:
A few years ago I picked up one within that number range at the local Cabella's. Well worn, mismatched, and the Montana cowboy/cavalry man had scratched his name into the side.
It shot fine...
dju

[Ron Wood]

In addition to the Bannerman purchase guns, don't forget the 50 7.65mm pieces "in good condition" that were exchanged by the Army for the 50 9mm Cartridge Counter guns. These 50 guns went to A.H. Funke, a retailer in New York, for commercial sale and the serial numbers have never been recorded. Perhaps in a musty old filing cabinet somewhere these serial numbers lie waiting to be discovered...wishful thinking !

[Lugerdoc]

Albert, I think that your estimate of 10 to 15 DWM .45 Cal lugers, must include the new repros being made by the Krausewerk in California. TH

[Imperial Arms]

No Thomas, I mean genuine .45 Lugers made in 1910-11, not those from Mike Krause. When DWM had proposed 5,000 .45 Lugers at $25 each for later orders in a letter dated 12th August 1907, I suppose that DWM would have made at least 10-15 pistols (second models)with the available tools that they made for this small run. If it is recorded that Mauser made about ten .45 pistols in two variations (i.e. the M1912 pistols and the M1912/14 Armee pistols in caliber .45), why would DWM, a larger factory negotiating a major deal with an important buyer, produce only three .45 pistols in 3-4 years? I believe that DWM would have made more that three pistols in 1910-11, and I have the serial number of one other pistol which I cannot share at the moment, except that is between serial number 5-10.

Albert

[Imperial Arms]

I am happy to mention that I have one of the original DWM instruction manuals (first variation in English) what was given to A. H. Funke when they had received the fifty 7,65 mm pistols from the Army. The cover has an rubber stamp 'A. H. Funke, 101 Duane Street. N.Y.' These manuals are very rare with only a handful known to exist.

Albert

[Ron Wood]

Albert has long advocated that Luger documents are an overlooked and undervalued part of Luger collecting. I have been slower than he in accumulating these ephemera, but I am gradually acquiring some nice examples. One of these is an original DWM manual in English like Albert’s. Mine does not have an A.H Funke cover stamp but I agree with him that this is the most probable type of manual, if any, which was issued with the Model 1900 U.S. Test Trial Lugers.

As some of you know, the U.S. Test Trials are a favorite topic of mine and over the years I have accumulated a small sampling of the efforts of DWM and Georg Luger to compete in the trials. In addition to the DWM manual I offer the following: A consecutive pair of 7.65mm Test Trials Lugers with an original Rock Island Arsenal holster, a 9mm Cartridge Counter, a reproduction (Krauswerke) .45 caliber Test Luger and a rather worn original copy of the 1907 Test Trials Report (If someone has a more pristine example they would consider parting with, let me know!)

[wlyon]

Ron
Very special. Bill