1910 DWM Commercial???

evrenay · 06-30-2011, 02:14 PM

As you might realize, I am a newbie and my information about Luger's is not very deep.
I don't know whether it is a military or a commercial Luger. If I am mistaken, I would be grateful to the moderators to move the topic under the correct title.

I saw this pistol at a friend of mine in Turkey. It was refurbished for about 30 years by a Turkish master. I, personally, find the blueing very nice, considering the color.

I took the photos in a hurry, because I was cleaning it with Forrest Foam and we had to leave for the shooting range.

By the way the bore is not a good condition, nevertheless the pistol shoots flawless at a distance of 25 meters.

What do you think about her?

I Hope you can read the serial number. It is something like 3973 a .

Interesting toggle. I thought these sort of toggles are to see only on Swiss Lugers (I know, I was mistaken)

Firing pin has the two digits of the serial (73) on itself, however also a symbol something like an oval or a fish without tail fin.

The extractor (Auszieher)

Ron Wood · 06-30-2011, 02:35 PM

I think she is beautiful! It is really interesting that a Model 1900 rear toggle link has been added to the Model 1908 pistol. The toggle lock is of course useless but the toggle looks neat!

alanint · 06-30-2011, 02:52 PM

One can imagine all sorts of history for this gun! Present at Gallipoly? Nicely restored!

evrenay · 06-30-2011, 03:39 PM

Dear Ron and alaint,

what do you think, is the toggle implanted on this 1910 Luger or is it normal or even usual that 1910 Lugers (9x19 Parabellum) have this kind of toggles? I don't know how these kind of semi cut toggles are called.

Time after time we (me and my Luger fan friends) meet interesting Lugers here in Turkey. Some of them are badly treated (like the one I shared, nickel Mauser), serial numbers re-stamped, parts changed or remade, but sometimes we see such beautiful pieces that we could not believe our eyes and of course our luck.

Later on I will share my own 1915 DWM Luger Artillery with 1914 made Stock which was a gift from Mr Mauro Baudino (actually we exchanged antics). My Luger has, like the one I shared before (1916 DWM Luger Artillery), all her numbers matching and was not refurbished (that's why she has nearly no color on her anymore because the pre owner carried her all the time with himself, he must be a real Luger fan to have an artillery as a carry pistol).

When it comes to the restoration of this gun particularly; I hear that the gunsmith was from north of Turkey (which means he was Laz) and didn't even taught his own son how to mix the color so fine that the refurbish color is so close the original Luger color, before he died.

I don't know if this gun was at the war in Dardanelles or at any war in which German officers were involved on Ottoman soil.

alanint · 06-30-2011, 04:25 PM

Dear Evren,
Your gun is a model 1908 luger, (no stock lug) with a 1910 chamber date. It is a military pistol, not a commercial. The rearmost link in the toggle is from a model 1900 Luger, (scalloped toggle ears) which includes an additional lock, which later models did not have. Your will notice that there is no corresponding latch shelf on the lower receiver for this toggle lock to latch into, (look for photos of this latch shelf in the Model 1900 section of this website). This mismatched piece was added to your luger as there must have been some damage or other problem with the original toggle piece. This was perhaps done at the time of the gun's restoration.
I imagine that you are using translation software in your post. I would love to know what "Forrest Foam" is!

evrenay · 07-01-2011, 03:45 AM

Dear alaint Milfoam Forrest Bore Cleaner is this:

Not something authentical which we make from horse milk ;-)

If I didn't understand wrong, the Frame (Griffstück) was made before 1908 due to not exsisting stock lug, the chamber (fork, I would call, taking the German "Gabelgehaüse" in consideration) was the dated 1910, so it was made in 1910. That means the chamber was made at least 2 years after the frame. This also explains why there are no serial numbers at the side of the fork (or chamber). Most probably, they have erased them before installing it.

The rear toggle link (Hintergelenk) was made in 1900 or before. So it was made at least ten years before the chamber but might be the original rear toggle link of the pistol because the frame was made in some year before 1908. Are there common mark which would help us to distinguish the production dates of the rear toggle link from the frame?

In conclusion the frame and the chamber are mismatches, the rear toggle link and the chamber are also mismatches. The frame and the rear toggle link MIGHT manufactured in the same year.

If we summarize, this pistol is not a matching parts, Luger. Am I right?

What would you add on this information?

We would really appreciate any information about this particular Luger.

PS: Although it was assembled from different parts made in different times, it functions at the range like any other modern pistol, interestingly.

alanint · 07-01-2011, 08:28 AM

Well the ENTIRE pistol may be "Matching", except for the rear toggle link with the latch.
Although the frame is a "Model 1908" it does not mean it was made that year. This is the date it was accepted and adopted by the German military, (this is why the Luger is known as a P08). This frame was used up until 1913, when the stock lug was added to the rear grip. So a 1910 upper barrel and rails marked "1910" could be correct on this pistol. Early guns have fewer numbers, which must match. These numbers on most parts were added in later models.
The only part which is quite clearly not original to this pistol is the model 1900 toggle link.

Norme · 07-01-2011, 09:45 AM

Hi Evren, As Doug has said, your gun is a standard military P08 dated 1910. It appears to be all matching except for that rear toggle. When originally manufactured it had no hold-open, this part was added later (by the Germans). I can't tell from your photos whether this gun still has the long, unrelieved sear bar. Regards, Norm

Ron Wood · 07-01-2011, 12:01 PM

Just to add to what Doug and Norm have said, the gun is completely correct for a Model 1908 military gun dated 1910, with the exception of the replaced Model 1900 rear toggle link. If the frame had been manufactured before 1908 it would have been equipped with a grip safety. The frame on this gun was never configured for a grip safety.

Hugo Borchardt · 07-03-2011, 12:08 PM

I am usually turned off by customized grips, but those are stunning. Also, you can tell from the stains on the back of the grips that they have something like lacquer on them, giving them an interesting look and texture in addition to the inlay. Would surely like to see photos of the gun fully assembled!!!

Lugerdoc · 07-04-2011, 12:40 PM

I too admire the inlay work on the grips. Do these symbols have any particular meaning in Arabic? If you let me know the last 2 digits of your serial #, I may be able to provide you with a correct matching rear toggle line for your 1910, in trade for your mismatched M1900 rear toggle link. TH

Ron Wood · 07-04-2011, 12:47 PM

Tom,
The last two digits are 73.

Lugerdoc · 07-04-2011, 06:14 PM

Evren, The cloest numbered DWM rear toggle link that I have in stock is #76, but I do have a minty unnumbered one complete with recoil connecting link & pin as well as the mid axel retaining pin. I'd consider an ever trade for your M1900 rear link complete with toggle lock and connecting link. TH

ithacaartist · 07-05-2011, 03:55 PM

In reference to the bling applied to the grips, a protege' decorated his blacksmithing p/u truck with stick-on jewels. When parking, once, a passerby asked him if his daughter had done it. He has one son, but a wacky sense of humor and whimsy. These grips, indeed, reminded me of a typical adolescent girl's cell phone!
Although a bit free-form, this is nice work, incorporating what appears to be silver filigree/wire work and Malachite and turquoise. Just not my cup o'tea.

Ice · 07-05-2011, 05:14 PM

I like the Luger a great deal even though it is not matching. Its a unique pistol that somebody cared a lot about to go to that much trouble to decorate. Thanks for showing us, Evrenay.

Charlie

evrenay · 07-06-2011, 04:04 PM

Dear alaint, Ron and Norme,

thank you very much for the information you gave us. Every sentence you write helps me/us to have better knowledge about Lugers in our country.

Dear Clark Rickman,

I believe these grips were made in Düzce/Turkey using silver and the original grips. Unfortunately I do not know what those green stones are. However I can ask and inform you about the price if anybody is interested.

Dear Lugerdoc,

we use neither Arabic language nor the Arabic alphabet. It wouldn't make much sense to have Arabic symbols on your Luger grips. However I sometimes see the writing "ALLAH" as a decorative painting or engraving.

On the old Ottoman weapons one would see the stamp of the sultan which is Ottomanish (a mixture of Arabic, Persian and Turkish based on Turkish) in Arabic Alphabet. This should not confuse you.

I am not he owner of this Luger but as soon as I see him, I can ask my friend if he would like to exchange his toggle with what you offer.

By the way, if you are from the United States it will cost something like 100 to 150 USD to ship the toggle via UPS or FedEX from Turkey.
I also have connections in Germany, in case it is cheaper to ship items from the US to Germany.

06-30-2011, 02:14 PM	#1
evrenay User Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Eskişehir/Türkiye Posts: 45 Thanks: 1 Thanked 18 Times in 4 Posts	1910 DWM Commercial??? As you might realize, I am a newbie and my information about Luger's is not very deep. I don't know whether it is a military or a commercial Luger. If I am mistaken, I would be grateful to the moderators to move the topic under the correct title. I saw this pistol at a friend of mine in Turkey. It was refurbished for about 30 years by a Turkish master. I, personally, find the blueing very nice, considering the color. I took the photos in a hurry, because I was cleaning it with Forrest Foam and we had to leave for the shooting range. By the way the bore is not a good condition, nevertheless the pistol shoots flawless at a distance of 25 meters. What do you think about her? I Hope you can read the serial number. It is something like 3973 a . Interesting toggle. I thought these sort of toggles are to see only on Swiss Lugers (I know, I was mistaken) Firing pin has the two digits of the serial (73) on itself, however also a symbol something like an oval or a fish without tail fin. The extractor (Auszieher)

06-30-2011, 02:35 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I think she is beautiful! It is really interesting that a Model 1900 rear toggle link has been added to the Model 1908 pistol. The toggle lock is of course useless but the toggle looks neat! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-30-2011, 04:25 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Dear Evren, Your gun is a model 1908 luger, (no stock lug) with a 1910 chamber date. It is a military pistol, not a commercial. The rearmost link in the toggle is from a model 1900 Luger, (scalloped toggle ears) which includes an additional lock, which later models did not have. Your will notice that there is no corresponding latch shelf on the lower receiver for this toggle lock to latch into, (look for photos of this latch shelf in the Model 1900 section of this website). This mismatched piece was added to your luger as there must have been some damage or other problem with the original toggle piece. This was perhaps done at the time of the gun's restoration. I imagine that you are using translation software in your post. I would love to know what "Forrest Foam" is! Last edited by alanint; 06-30-2011 at 07:31 PM.

07-01-2011, 12:01 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Just to add to what Doug and Norm have said, the gun is completely correct for a Model 1908 military gun dated 1910, with the exception of the replaced Model 1900 rear toggle link. If the frame had been manufactured before 1908 it would have been equipped with a grip safety. The frame on this gun was never configured for a grip safety. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-03-2011, 12:08 PM	#10
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 340 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	I am usually turned off by customized grips, but those are stunning. Also, you can tell from the stains on the back of the grips that they have something like lacquer on them, giving them an interesting look and texture in addition to the inlay. Would surely like to see photos of the gun fully assembled!!! __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

06-30-2011, 02:52 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	One can imagine all sorts of history for this gun! Present at Gallipoly? Nicely restored!

06-30-2011, 03:39 PM	#4
evrenay User Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Eskişehir/Türkiye Posts: 45 Thanks: 1 Thanked 18 Times in 4 Posts	Dear Ron and alaint, what do you think, is the toggle implanted on this 1910 Luger or is it normal or even usual that 1910 Lugers (9x19 Parabellum) have this kind of toggles? I don't know how these kind of semi cut toggles are called. Time after time we (me and my Luger fan friends) meet interesting Lugers here in Turkey. Some of them are badly treated (like the one I shared, nickel Mauser), serial numbers re-stamped, parts changed or remade, but sometimes we see such beautiful pieces that we could not believe our eyes and of course our luck. Later on I will share my own 1915 DWM Luger Artillery with 1914 made Stock which was a gift from Mr Mauro Baudino (actually we exchanged antics). My Luger has, like the one I shared before (1916 DWM Luger Artillery), all her numbers matching and was not refurbished (that's why she has nearly no color on her anymore because the pre owner carried her all the time with himself, he must be a real Luger fan to have an artillery as a carry pistol). When it comes to the restoration of this gun particularly; I hear that the gunsmith was from north of Turkey (which means he was Laz) and didn't even taught his own son how to mix the color so fine that the refurbish color is so close the original Luger color, before he died. I don't know if this gun was at the war in Dardanelles or at any war in which German officers were involved on Ottoman soil.

07-01-2011, 03:45 AM	#6
evrenay User Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Eskişehir/Türkiye Posts: 45 Thanks: 1 Thanked 18 Times in 4 Posts	Dear alaint Milfoam Forrest Bore Cleaner is this: Not something authentical which we make from horse milk ;-) If I didn't understand wrong, the Frame (Griffstück) was made before 1908 due to not exsisting stock lug, the chamber (fork, I would call, taking the German "Gabelgehaüse" in consideration) was the dated 1910, so it was made in 1910. That means the chamber was made at least 2 years after the frame. This also explains why there are no serial numbers at the side of the fork (or chamber). Most probably, they have erased them before installing it. The rear toggle link (Hintergelenk) was made in 1900 or before. So it was made at least ten years before the chamber but might be the original rear toggle link of the pistol because the frame was made in some year before 1908. Are there common mark which would help us to distinguish the production dates of the rear toggle link from the frame? In conclusion the frame and the chamber are mismatches, the rear toggle link and the chamber are also mismatches. The frame and the rear toggle link MIGHT manufactured in the same year. If we summarize, this pistol is not a matching parts, Luger. Am I right? What would you add on this information? We would really appreciate any information about this particular Luger. PS: Although it was assembled from different parts made in different times, it functions at the range like any other modern pistol, interestingly.

07-01-2011, 08:28 AM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Well the ENTIRE pistol may be "Matching", except for the rear toggle link with the latch. Although the frame is a "Model 1908" it does not mean it was made that year. This is the date it was accepted and adopted by the German military, (this is why the Luger is known as a P08). This frame was used up until 1913, when the stock lug was added to the rear grip. So a 1910 upper barrel and rails marked "1910" could be correct on this pistol. Early guns have fewer numbers, which must match. These numbers on most parts were added in later models. The only part which is quite clearly not original to this pistol is the model 1900 toggle link.

07-01-2011, 09:45 AM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Evren, As Doug has said, your gun is a standard military P08 dated 1910. It appears to be all matching except for that rear toggle. When originally manufactured it had no hold-open, this part was added later (by the Germans). I can't tell from your photos whether this gun still has the long, unrelieved sear bar. Regards, Norm

07-04-2011, 12:40 PM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I too admire the inlay work on the grips. Do these symbols have any particular meaning in Arabic? If you let me know the last 2 digits of your serial #, I may be able to provide you with a correct matching rear toggle line for your 1910, in trade for your mismatched M1900 rear toggle link. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-04-2011, 12:47 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Tom, The last two digits are 73. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-04-2011, 06:14 PM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Evren, The cloest numbered DWM rear toggle link that I have in stock is #76, but I do have a minty unnumbered one complete with recoil connecting link & pin as well as the mid axel retaining pin. I'd consider an ever trade for your M1900 rear link complete with toggle lock and connecting link. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-05-2011, 03:55 PM	#14
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,292 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	It's always a matter of taste... In reference to the bling applied to the grips, a protege' decorated his blacksmithing p/u truck with stick-on jewels. When parking, once, a passerby asked him if his daughter had done it. He has one son, but a wacky sense of humor and whimsy. These grips, indeed, reminded me of a typical adolescent girl's cell phone! Although a bit free-form, this is nice work, incorporating what appears to be silver filigree/wire work and Malachite and turquoise. Just not my cup o'tea.

07-05-2011, 05:14 PM	#15
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I like the Luger a great deal even though it is not matching. Its a unique pistol that somebody cared a lot about to go to that much trouble to decorate. Thanks for showing us, Evrenay. Charlie

07-06-2011, 04:04 PM	#16
evrenay User Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Eskişehir/Türkiye Posts: 45 Thanks: 1 Thanked 18 Times in 4 Posts	Dear alaint, Ron and Norme, thank you very much for the information you gave us. Every sentence you write helps me/us to have better knowledge about Lugers in our country. Dear Clark Rickman, I believe these grips were made in Düzce/Turkey using silver and the original grips. Unfortunately I do not know what those green stones are. However I can ask and inform you about the price if anybody is interested. Dear Lugerdoc, we use neither Arabic language nor the Arabic alphabet. It wouldn't make much sense to have Arabic symbols on your Luger grips. However I sometimes see the writing "ALLAH" as a decorative painting or engraving. On the old Ottoman weapons one would see the stamp of the sultan which is Ottomanish (a mixture of Arabic, Persian and Turkish based on Turkish) in Arabic Alphabet. This should not confuse you. I am not he owner of this Luger but as soon as I see him, I can ask my friend if he would like to exchange his toggle with what you offer. By the way, if you are from the United States it will cost something like 100 to 150 USD to ship the toggle via UPS or FedEX from Turkey. I also have connections in Germany, in case it is cheaper to ship items from the US to Germany.