Power of P-08 ammo in the 1920's - Page 2

Vlim · 06-23-2012, 06:20 PM

Lugers were initially sighted in at 50 meters, during the last production years that changed to 25.

SIGP2101 · 07-06-2012, 05:11 PM

Prior and during WWII nitrocellulose powders were used on all sides. This particular two component gun powder by today's standards would be considered slow to medium burning rate powder. (remember the flash at the muzzle)
Today's modern powders are fast and too snappy for Lugers. This is where most of the problems with P08 originate. Weak springs and out of shape other parts of P08's contribute even more to incorrect functioning of the Lugers. If you reload start with proper burning rate powder. Then trouble shoot other components of the device. Using famous white W box 9mm is not way to go with P08's. 124 grains jacketed and slow to medium BR is proper way.
Tweaking a Luger to the off the shelf ammo of choice may be doable but something will give.

Sieger · 07-07-2012, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

Prior and during WWII nitrocellulose powders were used on all sides. This particular two component gun powder by today's standards would be considered slow to medium burning rate powder. (remember the flash at the muzzle)
Today's modern powders are fast and too snappy for Lugers. This is where most of the problems with P08 originate. Weak springs and out of shape other parts of P08's contribute even more to incorrect functioning of the Lugers. If you reload start with proper burning rate powder. Then trouble shoot other components of the device. Using famous white W box 9mm is not way to go with P08's. 124 grains jacketed and slow to medium BR is proper way.
Tweaking a Luger to the off the shelf ammo of choice may be doable but something will give.

Hi:

Though some may consider us insane, I agree with your statement above completely!!

Here are some excellent powders I've used to create some outstanding handloads.

FMJ Loads: SR 4756 and Power Pistol

Lead Loads Accurate #5

All are with 115 to 125 grain bullets.

Sieger

Terry Tiell · 07-07-2012, 01:40 PM

Man this place is full of great information! Thanks once again guys. I've been running the white box Walmart 9mm thru mine and so far so good with zero problems. Now I must add all my springs are brand new so that probly helps things to work smoothly.

as for the sighting in of the weapon the distance it was sighted changing from 50 to 25 meters would explain everything! I thought I was going crazy as my original "G" upper and barrel seemed dead on at the range but the replacement 1913 parts seemed to shoot high now I know I just need to aim a tad lower due to where it was sighted originally. Thanks everyone.

jdickson397 · 07-08-2012, 05:14 PM

The Winchester target/range ammo being referred to in this thread is in a white box with the word "WInchester" in RED letters and "USA" printed in red letters inside a small circle surrounded by stars. It is 115 grain FMJ.

The NATO ammo is also in a white box with the word "NATO" printed in BLACK letters. It is 124 grain FMJ.

Hope this helps. For what it's worth my 124 grain reloads seem to match POA and POI better in my Brownig Hi-Power. Can't supply any feedback on my Luger as it is 7.65mm.

jdickson397 · 07-09-2012, 08:18 AM

Sieger, do you have the specs on the 1920's version of 7.65mm ammo? I know it used a 93 grain FMJ bullet but what was the muzzle velocity in feet per second?

I have a 30 Luger Browning Hi Power and have found the Hornady 90 grain XTP(it's a JHP in ,309 diameter) loads well. Also have some 93 grain LRN bullets that have some good loadings. I wanted to ocmpare the original ammo specs to these loads. Thanks.

Vlim · 07-09-2012, 10:47 AM

1934-37 military specifications for the 9mm mention an 8 gram bullet, with a velocity of 320 meters/second.
Which is basically within the specification range of both Winchester white-box and S&B 124grain.

Mauser did extensive testing of .30 luger and 9mm rounds when looking for a suitable baseline testing product for their 1970s production. They didn't see much problems either. In fact, they complimented Winchester with the quality of their 9mm rounds and the consistency of its performance. They opted for using Norma 9mm rounds for testing, as they were consistent and a bit hotter than the other rounds (Geco, Winchester, Swiss army, Swedish army).

SteveM · 07-09-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Mauser did extensive testing of .30 luger and 9mm rounds when looking for a suitable baseline testing product for their 1970s production.

The Norma 30 cal always performed better for me in my Lugers than the Winchester or Remington. I've never had the pleasure of trying the 9mm.

Sieger · 07-09-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdickson397

Sieger, do you have the specs on the 1920's version of 7.65mm ammo? I know it used a 93 grain FMJ bullet but what was the muzzle velocity in feet per second?

I have a 30 Luger Browning Hi Power and have found the Hornady 90 grain XTP(it's a JHP in ,309 diameter) loads well. Also have some 93 grain LRN bullets that have some good loadings. I wanted to ocmpare the original ammo specs to these loads. Thanks.

Hi:

From the original German sources I find the following for the 7.65mm:

DWM Production (Pre WWI)

Vel. at 33 feet, 1,150 fps (350 m.)

Mauser Produced Pistols (Pre WWII)

Vel. (unlisted test distance) 1,188 fps (361 m)

I hope this info helps!!

Sieger

jdickson397 · 07-11-2012, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi:

Though some may consider us insane, I agree with your statement above completely!!

Here are some excellent powders I've used to create some outstanding handloads.

FMJ Loads: SR 4756 and Power Pistol

Lead Loads Accurate #5

All are with 115 to 125 grain bullets.

Sieger

Sieger, what slow to medium burn rate powders do you recommend for 7.65mm loads? Thanks.

Lugerdoc · 07-11-2012, 12:18 PM

IMHO the work NATO stamped on many boxes of ammo, just equates to 9x19mm or 9mm Parabellum, not the weight of the bullet or the power load. TH

Sieger · 07-11-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

IMHO the work NATO stamped on many boxes of ammo, just equates to 9x19mm or 9mm Parabellum, not the weight of the bullet or the power load. TH

Tom:

Please name a few brands and types that are not the HOT NATO spec. rounds, as all on the current market that I know of are the hot stuff (121 grains at 1,260fps or so)

Sieger

Sieger · 07-11-2012, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdickson397

Sieger, what slow to medium burn rate powders do you recommend for 7.65mm loads? Thanks.

Hi:

The same.

Sieger

SIGP2101 · 07-11-2012, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi:

Though some may consider us insane, I agree with your statement above completely!!

Sieger

Good to know that I am not alone in this cruel world.

06-23-2012, 06:20 PM	#21
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Lugers were initially sighted in at 50 meters, during the last production years that changed to 25. Attached Thumbnails

07-07-2012, 01:40 PM	#24
Terry Tiell User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: The Fascist State of Maryland Posts: 224 Thanks: 55 Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts	Man this place is full of great information! Thanks once again guys. I've been running the white box Walmart 9mm thru mine and so far so good with zero problems. Now I must add all my springs are brand new so that probly helps things to work smoothly. as for the sighting in of the weapon the distance it was sighted changing from 50 to 25 meters would explain everything! I thought I was going crazy as my original "G" upper and barrel seemed dead on at the range but the replacement 1913 parts seemed to shoot high now I know I just need to aim a tad lower due to where it was sighted originally. Thanks everyone. __________________ Trying to redo grand dads Luger the best I can.

07-09-2012, 10:47 AM	#27
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	1934-37 military specifications for the 9mm mention an 8 gram bullet, with a velocity of 320 meters/second. Which is basically within the specification range of both Winchester white-box and S&B 124grain. Mauser did extensive testing of .30 luger and 9mm rounds when looking for a suitable baseline testing product for their 1970s production. They didn't see much problems either. In fact, they complimented Winchester with the quality of their 9mm rounds and the consistency of its performance. They opted for using Norma 9mm rounds for testing, as they were consistent and a bit hotter than the other rounds (Geco, Winchester, Swiss army, Swedish army). Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Vlim; 07-09-2012 at 03:13 PM.

07-11-2012, 12:18 PM	#31
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	IMHO the work NATO stamped on many boxes of ammo, just equates to 9x19mm or 9mm Parabellum, not the weight of the bullet or the power load. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-06-2012, 05:11 PM	#22
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Prior and during WWII nitrocellulose powders were used on all sides. This particular two component gun powder by today's standards would be considered slow to medium burning rate powder. (remember the flash at the muzzle) Today's modern powders are fast and too snappy for Lugers. This is where most of the problems with P08 originate. Weak springs and out of shape other parts of P08's contribute even more to incorrect functioning of the Lugers. If you reload start with proper burning rate powder. Then trouble shoot other components of the device. Using famous white W box 9mm is not way to go with P08's. 124 grains jacketed and slow to medium BR is proper way. Tweaking a Luger to the off the shelf ammo of choice may be doable but something will give.

07-08-2012, 05:14 PM	#25
jdickson397 User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 12 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The Winchester target/range ammo being referred to in this thread is in a white box with the word "WInchester" in RED letters and "USA" printed in red letters inside a small circle surrounded by stars. It is 115 grain FMJ. The NATO ammo is also in a white box with the word "NATO" printed in BLACK letters. It is 124 grain FMJ. Hope this helps. For what it's worth my 124 grain reloads seem to match POA and POI better in my Brownig Hi-Power. Can't supply any feedback on my Luger as it is 7.65mm.

07-09-2012, 08:18 AM	#26
jdickson397 User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 12 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Sieger, do you have the specs on the 1920's version of 7.65mm ammo? I know it used a 93 grain FMJ bullet but what was the muzzle velocity in feet per second? I have a 30 Luger Browning Hi Power and have found the Hornady 90 grain XTP(it's a JHP in ,309 diameter) loads well. Also have some 93 grain LRN bullets that have some good loadings. I wanted to ocmpare the original ammo specs to these loads. Thanks.