death's head info

mdrumbore · 01-14-2013, 06:32 PM

I was wondering if anyone out there could tell me what to look for in a death's head Luger to verify if it is legitimate. I will be going to look at one sometime this week with interest in purchasing it but only having seen a few pictures of them, I'm not entirely sure what to look for to tell a real one from a fake. Any pictures will be appreciated and I will post some after I see it if I am allowed to take pictures. Thanks for the help.
A new collector,
Michael

Norme · 01-14-2013, 06:43 PM

Hi Michael, Welcome to the forum! Opinion is divided on Death's Head Lugers. Some very experienced collectors think they are all fake, while others, including myself, think that some might well be genuine. Unfortunately, no one has demonstrated a proven way of telling real from fake. The one thing you can be sure of, everyone who owns one, thinks theirs is authentic.
Good luck, Norm

Edward Tinker · 01-14-2013, 07:13 PM

Norm, I have one, and I know its fake, and kinda why i bought it

But, I can't get the dang thing to fire / click so I am going to part it out.

The Deathheads that I believe are real seem to be 1917's and were a unit marking. Also, right after WW1 just before the Weimar republic and maybe slightly after, deathhead units were known.

Ed

Ron Wood · 01-14-2013, 07:52 PM

Norm's and Ed’s admonitions are well taken. There is no sure-fire way to determine real from fake Death Head Lugers. You have to proceed with the assumption that they are all fake and then back off from there. To be even considered, the gun must be of WWI military vintage, either DWM (most known examples) or Erfurt dated between 1912 and 1918 (from observed examples). Secondly, you can’t pay an exorbitant amount for a piece that probably never in our lifetime is positively verified as authentic. I bought mine dirt cheap (about $100 for the gun, a dagger and a bunch of German medals and insignia) 44 years ago when such an animal was barely known. A number of years later I had it “authenticated” by a gentleman that had spent several years studying the origin and characteristics of DH Lugers. Since then, even he has changed his mind a few times about these guns, so all bets are off. I still think mine is OK, but who knows?
At a minimum, post photos here on the forum and stand back for responses…they will be all over the spectrum and you will have to pick and choose what you believe. The bottom line is, if you have some confidence in the answers that are posted, in the seller that he is not a snake oil salesman and that the price is within your comfort zone for gambling, give it a shot and enjoy what you get.

DavidJayUden · 01-14-2013, 07:54 PM

Michael:
Unfortunately the short answer is No.
There is universal discord on the DH subject. There are some learned collectors with an opinion but I've not heard more than 1 or 2 of them agree on many aspects of the subject.
Tread very lightly here because there are no hard "facts" on the subject. You are completely on your own IMHO.
And this could be a wonderful research topic...
dju

Raygunz · 01-14-2013, 09:11 PM

I picked one up only because it was a 1918 Erfurt in 90%+ condition and fit in my Erfurt collection. The totenkopf was in the same design and location as the others I've seen pictured. I'm on the fence concerning this as there's little information to justify its reason to be on a luger. Either way, it looks cool and you never really know...

CJS57 · 01-14-2013, 10:09 PM

I had the Death's Head mark stamped on a German post WWI reworked K98 Carbine. It came from a veteran's family and I am sure it was not a fake. For one thing they sold it dirt cheap and did not know the mark was even on there. So I am a believer too.

mdrumbore · 01-15-2013, 01:50 PM

Thanks for all the info. And I will post some pictures if able once I see the Luger in question. I knew this was a very grey area of opinion to most collectors. It will be very interesting to study and learn about none the less.

kubel · 01-17-2013, 06:42 PM

There are "legitimate" Death Head (Totenkopf) markings on K98s, particularly on WWI and post WWI Gewehr conversions for use in the SS. However, they usually also have additional markings to validate their authenticity. I've personally never seen a Death Head Luger but would agree that any anomaly like this (if original) would most likely be part of a WWI unit marking or even more remotely, an addition by the Freikorps.

Dale

01-14-2013, 06:32 PM	#1
mdrumbore User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 51 Thanks: 7 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	death's head info I was wondering if anyone out there could tell me what to look for in a death's head Luger to verify if it is legitimate. I will be going to look at one sometime this week with interest in purchasing it but only having seen a few pictures of them, I'm not entirely sure what to look for to tell a real one from a fake. Any pictures will be appreciated and I will post some after I see it if I am allowed to take pictures. Thanks for the help. A new collector, Michael

01-14-2013, 07:13 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Norm, I have one, and I know its fake, and kinda why i bought it But, I can't get the dang thing to fire / click so I am going to part it out. The Deathheads that I believe are real seem to be 1917's and were a unit marking. Also, right after WW1 just before the Weimar republic and maybe slightly after, deathhead units were known. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-14-2013, 07:52 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Norm's and Ed’s admonitions are well taken. There is no sure-fire way to determine real from fake Death Head Lugers. You have to proceed with the assumption that they are all fake and then back off from there. To be even considered, the gun must be of WWI military vintage, either DWM (most known examples) or Erfurt dated between 1912 and 1918 (from observed examples). Secondly, you can’t pay an exorbitant amount for a piece that probably never in our lifetime is positively verified as authentic. I bought mine dirt cheap (about $100 for the gun, a dagger and a bunch of German medals and insignia) 44 years ago when such an animal was barely known. A number of years later I had it “authenticated” by a gentleman that had spent several years studying the origin and characteristics of DH Lugers. Since then, even he has changed his mind a few times about these guns, so all bets are off. I still think mine is OK, but who knows? At a minimum, post photos here on the forum and stand back for responses…they will be all over the spectrum and you will have to pick and choose what you believe. The bottom line is, if you have some confidence in the answers that are posted, in the seller that he is not a snake oil salesman and that the price is within your comfort zone for gambling, give it a shot and enjoy what you get. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-14-2013, 06:43 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Michael, Welcome to the forum! Opinion is divided on Death's Head Lugers. Some very experienced collectors think they are all fake, while others, including myself, think that some might well be genuine. Unfortunately, no one has demonstrated a proven way of telling real from fake. The one thing you can be sure of, everyone who owns one, thinks theirs is authentic. Good luck, Norm

01-14-2013, 07:54 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Michael: Unfortunately the short answer is No. There is universal discord on the DH subject. There are some learned collectors with an opinion but I've not heard more than 1 or 2 of them agree on many aspects of the subject. Tread very lightly here because there are no hard "facts" on the subject. You are completely on your own IMHO. And this could be a wonderful research topic... dju

01-14-2013, 09:11 PM	#6
Raygunz User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I picked one up only because it was a 1918 Erfurt in 90%+ condition and fit in my Erfurt collection. The totenkopf was in the same design and location as the others I've seen pictured. I'm on the fence concerning this as there's little information to justify its reason to be on a luger. Either way, it looks cool and you never really know...

01-14-2013, 10:09 PM	#7
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	I had the Death's Head mark stamped on a German post WWI reworked K98 Carbine. It came from a veteran's family and I am sure it was not a fake. For one thing they sold it dirt cheap and did not know the mark was even on there. So I am a believer too.

01-15-2013, 01:50 PM	#8
mdrumbore User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 51 Thanks: 7 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks for all the info. And I will post some pictures if able once I see the Luger in question. I knew this was a very grey area of opinion to most collectors. It will be very interesting to study and learn about none the less.

01-17-2013, 06:42 PM	#9
kubel User Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 124 Thanks: 5 Thanked 32 Times in 20 Posts	There are "legitimate" Death Head (Totenkopf) markings on K98s, particularly on WWI and post WWI Gewehr conversions for use in the SS. However, they usually also have additional markings to validate their authenticity. I've personally never seen a Death Head Luger but would agree that any anomaly like this (if original) would most likely be part of a WWI unit marking or even more remotely, an addition by the Freikorps. Dale