Question on Grip Screws - Page 2

John Sabato · 03-29-2011, 08:57 AM

The diameter and thread pitch are correct, but you should contact the company via email or phone to inquire about whitworth threads before ordering...

Hugh · 03-29-2011, 02:01 PM

It really doesn't matter as the only difference is that the Whitworth has a 55 degree thread and the standard has a 60 degree thread. The spacing is the same. As thin as the Luger grip is, with only 3 or 4 threads, the thread angle isn't going to matter. Also, after extensive searching on the internet, that was the only place I found that size available, without ordering from England.

You will have to telephone them to ask questions.

From the internet:

"The Whitworth tap is a designation assigned to taps that use the British unit of measurement for its pitch and size. Named after Sir Joseph Whitworth of Stockport, England, the Whitworth type of threading was not initially meant for fasteners such as screws or bolts. It was first used as the measurement of the threading within a rifle barrel that adds spin to a fired bullet. Due to its ideal helix angle, it allowed bullets to be fired further and more accurately. This helix angle can now be seen it the threading of screws and bolts that follow the standard measurements of British taps. Unlike their American counterparts who use a standard 0.013 mm pitch distance it their threading, Whitworth taps generally use a 0.0005 inch pitch distance in their threading. Although these taps are no longer as common as the metric tap since the US standard has been adopted internationally, Whitworth taps are still available in all types of taps. From thread cutting dies and cutting taps to forming taps and custom dies, the Whitworth tap is still very much in use."

"There are three main divisions of British measurements used in threading screws, bolts and nuts. The first is the British Association or BA series of taps. This is the rough equivalent to the Society of Automotive Engineers or SAE standard taps that use the metric system. These are numbered 1 to 14 in sizing. The second is the British Standard Fine taps or the BSF. This is the counterpart of the SAE Unified National Fine taps. These are available in sizes ranging from 3/16 of an inch to 1 inch, with pitches ranging from 32 for the 3/16th inch tap to 10 for the 1 inch tap. The third is the British Standard Whitworth tap or BSW. These are equated with the SAE Unified National Coarse taps of the metric system taps. These are larger taps that range from 1/8 of an inch to 2 ½ inches in size, with the pitch ranging from 40 for the 1/8 inch tap and 4 for the 2 ½ inch tap. These tap sizes are available at Newman Tools Inc of Canada or their US office located in Hartford, CT, USA.

Another Whitworth tap that offers the quality and effectiveness of a large tool making company is the Whitworth tap from Axminster Tool Center. These tap and die tools from Axminster are made from high quality materials and offer long lasting function. They are available in three forms. There are tapered Whitworth taps to start threading off. Another form is the intermediate Whitworth tap that is used to follow up a tapping job. The third form is the bottoming Whitworth tap that cuts threads from the bottom of a hole that has been previously drilled. These are available in various sizes at approximately $3 to $4 a piece."

sheepherder · 03-29-2011, 06:30 PM

Thank You, Hugh!

sheepherder · 03-30-2011, 06:30 PM

Just for S&G, I tried a Luger grip screw in my crimping pliars...(electricians pliars)...It went in nice & easy; not too tight, not too loose...It's the #10-32 hole...

A #10-32 HHCS goes in nice & easy, too...But won't go in a Luger grip frame...

...Doesn't prove anything...Just thought I'd throw this in here...

sheepherder · 04-12-2011, 07:55 PM

I drilled & tapped three holes in a piece of scrap steel today...Using the following taps & drills

Tap/Drill

3/16" x 30/#23

3/16" x 32/#22

#10 x 32/#21

(The two 3/16" taps obtained from www.tapsndies.com; the #10 is from Ace Hardware)

Pics below...Both the 3/16" x 30 & the 3/16" x 32 tapped holes accepted a Luger grip screw...(off an S/42 Luger)...The #10 x 32 tapped hole would only allow 2 threads of the screw before binding...The two 3/16" tapped holes allowed all 3 threads of the grip screw...

I ended up tapping my grip frame with the 3/16" x 32 tap...The Luger grip screw fits just fine...

CAP Black · 12-09-2011, 04:31 PM

Here is my experience regarding this issue. I took a gun to a shop that produces taps and sells numerous taps from other producers. They must have dozens and hundreds of different sizes and shapes, types and thread counts. They concluded it is 32 TPI, Whitworth, as I told him I understood it to be.
He used a "starter" tap and gently placed it into the threads in the gun; worked it into what he could feel as the starting point and, just with his fingers, made a quarter of a turn 3 or 4 times and gradually got it taking hold. When it got too tight for finger turning, after visually checking it numerous times, as he worked, he put a "T" wrench on it and worked it through. He only visually checked the screw and put it into the hole and once again gently turned it into place. It worked slick as anything. That was on a 1915 Arty. We repeated it on a 1900 AE with the same results. I bought the "starter" tap for $15 and brought it home to become a new addition to my tool box. Nothing was done to the screw. Apparently from the shape and bluntness of the screw, it is most often that the threads in the hole get damaged - not the threads on the screw.

A.Mifsin · 12-10-2011, 04:51 AM

"I ended up tapping my grip frame with the 3/16" x 32 tap...The Luger grip screw fits just fine... "

Hi Postino, is the 3/16"x32 BSF or Whitworth.
Alf.

ithacaartist · 12-10-2011, 11:51 AM

The way I recall the Whitworth tap I just bought and chased grip screw threads with was listed both ways. BSF=British standard fine, which is the fine version of BSW=British standard Whitworth(coarse thread). So whit.3/16-32 would be the same as 3/16 BSF.
Here's a thought, did the original post seek larger diameter HEADS for the grip screws? I've noticed that this is the case for Erma La-22's; but since I am away from the guns in question, cannot say right now. The Erma grip screws have a significantly larger head diameter, so if thread size and pitch somehow match, they could work where this would be needed--or turned down a tad if the dia. is excessive.
David Parker

A.Mifsin · 12-10-2011, 12:02 PM

Thanks, the problem is I can't find 3/16"x32 Whitworth(BSW), only 3/16" x 32 BSF .
Alf

CAP Black · 12-12-2011, 01:12 PM

In two guns for me, 32 Tpi at 3/16 - Whitworthworked just fine and cleared up my problems. One was a 1915 Arty the other was a 1900 AE.

ithacaartist · 12-12-2011, 01:39 PM

Albert, the BSW is coarse Whitworth thread, the BSF is fine Whitworth thread...

sheepherder · 05-19-2013, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Here's a thought, did the original post seek larger diameter HEADS for the grip screws?

Yes. Here is a copy of the Numrich Luger P-08 parts listing, just for S&G...I only noticed this today (Numrich has a habit of listing 'Not Illustrated' parts wherever they please...)

466070 Grip Screw (.258 OAL, .393 Head Diameter, Thread Pitch M5 x .8; 2 Req'd) $3.55

1430020 Grip Screw (.193 OAL, .344 Head Diameter, M5 x .8) $3.45

1430010 Grip Screw (.214 OAL, .373 Head Diameter, M5 x .8, Beveled) $3.45

I ordered two of the .393 dia screws...I'm doubtful of their thread pitch, but I hope they can read a caliper correctly...

03-30-2011, 06:30 PM	#24
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Just for S&G, I tried a Luger grip screw in my crimping pliars...(electricians pliars)...It went in nice & easy; not too tight, not too loose...It's the #10-32 hole... A #10-32 HHCS goes in nice & easy, too...But won't go in a Luger grip frame... ...Doesn't prove anything...Just thought I'd throw this in here... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

04-12-2011, 07:55 PM	#25
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I drilled & tapped three holes in a piece of scrap steel today...Using the following taps & drills Tap/Drill 3/16" x 30/#23 3/16" x 32/#22 #10 x 32/#21 (The two 3/16" taps obtained from www.tapsndies.com; the #10 is from Ace Hardware) Pics below...Both the 3/16" x 30 & the 3/16" x 32 tapped holes accepted a Luger grip screw...(off an S/42 Luger)...The #10 x 32 tapped hole would only allow 2 threads of the screw before binding...The two 3/16" tapped holes allowed all 3 threads of the grip screw... I ended up tapping my grip frame with the 3/16" x 32 tap...The Luger grip screw fits just fine... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

12-10-2011, 04:51 AM	#27
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	"I ended up tapping my grip frame with the 3/16" x 32 tap...The Luger grip screw fits just fine... " Hi Postino, is the 3/16"x32 BSF or Whitworth. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

12-10-2011, 12:02 PM	#29
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Thanks, the problem is I can't find 3/16"x32 Whitworth(BSW), only 3/16" x 32 BSF . Alf __________________ I prefer a Luger

03-29-2011, 08:57 AM	#21
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	The diameter and thread pitch are correct, but you should contact the company via email or phone to inquire about whitworth threads before ordering... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-29-2011, 02:01 PM	#22
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	It really doesn't matter as the only difference is that the Whitworth has a 55 degree thread and the standard has a 60 degree thread. The spacing is the same. As thin as the Luger grip is, with only 3 or 4 threads, the thread angle isn't going to matter. Also, after extensive searching on the internet, that was the only place I found that size available, without ordering from England. You will have to telephone them to ask questions. From the internet: "The Whitworth tap is a designation assigned to taps that use the British unit of measurement for its pitch and size. Named after Sir Joseph Whitworth of Stockport, England, the Whitworth type of threading was not initially meant for fasteners such as screws or bolts. It was first used as the measurement of the threading within a rifle barrel that adds spin to a fired bullet. Due to its ideal helix angle, it allowed bullets to be fired further and more accurately. This helix angle can now be seen it the threading of screws and bolts that follow the standard measurements of British taps. Unlike their American counterparts who use a standard 0.013 mm pitch distance it their threading, Whitworth taps generally use a 0.0005 inch pitch distance in their threading. Although these taps are no longer as common as the metric tap since the US standard has been adopted internationally, Whitworth taps are still available in all types of taps. From thread cutting dies and cutting taps to forming taps and custom dies, the Whitworth tap is still very much in use." "There are three main divisions of British measurements used in threading screws, bolts and nuts. The first is the British Association or BA series of taps. This is the rough equivalent to the Society of Automotive Engineers or SAE standard taps that use the metric system. These are numbered 1 to 14 in sizing. The second is the British Standard Fine taps or the BSF. This is the counterpart of the SAE Unified National Fine taps. These are available in sizes ranging from 3/16 of an inch to 1 inch, with pitches ranging from 32 for the 3/16th inch tap to 10 for the 1 inch tap. The third is the British Standard Whitworth tap or BSW. These are equated with the SAE Unified National Coarse taps of the metric system taps. These are larger taps that range from 1/8 of an inch to 2 ½ inches in size, with the pitch ranging from 40 for the 1/8 inch tap and 4 for the 2 ½ inch tap. These tap sizes are available at Newman Tools Inc of Canada or their US office located in Hartford, CT, USA. Another Whitworth tap that offers the quality and effectiveness of a large tool making company is the Whitworth tap from Axminster Tool Center. These tap and die tools from Axminster are made from high quality materials and offer long lasting function. They are available in three forms. There are tapered Whitworth taps to start threading off. Another form is the intermediate Whitworth tap that is used to follow up a tapping job. The third form is the bottoming Whitworth tap that cuts threads from the bottom of a hole that has been previously drilled. These are available in various sizes at approximately $3 to $4 a piece." __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

03-29-2011, 06:30 PM	#23
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Thank You, Hugh! __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

12-09-2011, 04:31 PM	#26
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Here is my experience regarding this issue. I took a gun to a shop that produces taps and sells numerous taps from other producers. They must have dozens and hundreds of different sizes and shapes, types and thread counts. They concluded it is 32 TPI, Whitworth, as I told him I understood it to be. He used a "starter" tap and gently placed it into the threads in the gun; worked it into what he could feel as the starting point and, just with his fingers, made a quarter of a turn 3 or 4 times and gradually got it taking hold. When it got too tight for finger turning, after visually checking it numerous times, as he worked, he put a "T" wrench on it and worked it through. He only visually checked the screw and put it into the hole and once again gently turned it into place. It worked slick as anything. That was on a 1915 Arty. We repeated it on a 1900 AE with the same results. I bought the "starter" tap for $15 and brought it home to become a new addition to my tool box. Nothing was done to the screw. Apparently from the shape and bluntness of the screw, it is most often that the threads in the hole get damaged - not the threads on the screw.

12-10-2011, 11:51 AM	#28
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	The way I recall the Whitworth tap I just bought and chased grip screw threads with was listed both ways. BSF=British standard fine, which is the fine version of BSW=British standard Whitworth(coarse thread). So whit.3/16-32 would be the same as 3/16 BSF. Here's a thought, did the original post seek larger diameter HEADS for the grip screws? I've noticed that this is the case for Erma La-22's; but since I am away from the guns in question, cannot say right now. The Erma grip screws have a significantly larger head diameter, so if thread size and pitch somehow match, they could work where this would be needed--or turned down a tad if the dia. is excessive. David Parker

12-12-2011, 01:12 PM	#30
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	In two guns for me, 32 Tpi at 3/16 - Whitworthworked just fine and cleared up my problems. One was a 1915 Arty the other was a 1900 AE.

12-12-2011, 01:39 PM	#31
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Albert, the BSW is coarse Whitworth thread, the BSF is fine Whitworth thread...