my first PO8 info and help?

[scottar15]

hello all this is my first Luger i belive it is correct for a (black widow) any information on it would would be great. IE is it real? when and where it was made possible value? Thanks for any help as once again i am very new to collecting Lugers

[alanint]

It looks like a correct, original, matching BYF 41, (or "Black Widow"). The only thing that cannot be commented on is if internal numbers all match, which is something you need to check.

Very nice find!

Did it come with a holster, tool, extra mag?

[scottar15]

yes i did get a holster with it in very nice shape, saddly no tool or extra mag.as far the extractor is correct and the pin. is the low serial unusal? 271. thanks, isthere anyway possible to find the history of this luger?ther wheres and whys of history are very interesting and important to me as well, if it can be done. i would in the future like to get a simson luger as to match the shotgun i have

[G.T.]

It is actually a very high serial number...at least for a byf 41... The Germans used a 1 to 4 digit serial followed by a letter suffix... and in the case of a byf 41, it went thru 9999z and then rolled around to 1 thru, somewhere in the XXXXa block prior to the byf 42's... Yours has the E/135 stamp that was applied to all the byf 42's... makes it even a bit more rare...??..or at least to byf collectors it does... Nice gun, best to you, til...lat'r...GT

[guns3545]

Further to G.T.'s comment, the pistol is indeed very late in 1941 production as the "ns" block overlaps with the 42 byf production run.

Of special note is that SN 271 is perhaps the earliest pistol observed with the SE135, SE135 acceptance proofs.

We know inspector SE135 arrived on the scene during the ns block. While SE655, SE135 and SE135, SE655 are observed throughout the "ns" range, it appears inspector SE135 was responsible for first and secondary inspections much earlier in the ns block than previous data indicated.

However, I also hasten to add that another explanation is possible; namely, that the pistol was initially rejected and then recycled in 1942 when SE135 was clearly in charge of first and second inspections and inspector SE655 had departed.

As GT pointed out all 42 byfs are SE135 SE135 proofed.

Thus, either way, an interesting pistol from a collector's standpoint trying to understand when pistols were produced and who inspected them.

However, to the inspecting authority it was just one more P.08 coming off the line during WW II. Nothing more. Nothing less. And besides, the P.38 was now the standard sidearm and the P.08 was being phased out.

John

[scottar15]

wow, great and really interesting info guys. love it! now i need to go buys a book or four on the subject.. like i said before i love the history. thanks so much.

[tharpo]

Looking at the 4th picture down, is that an "a" suffix on the frame?

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by tharpo

Looking at the 4th picture down, is that an "a" suffix on the frame?

Good catch. Frankly never looked closely at the SN, just relied on the message. But that sure looks like a suffix and so please disregard my remarks.

It is a low number a or b block 41 byf. Probably "a" from the photo; but a better picture of the front of the frame would end all doubts.

John

[scottar15]

can anyone give me a possible in the ball park idea of value?

[DavidJayUden]

These guns seem to bring a bit more than the wood grip models. Heaven only knows why...
I'd guestimate a low end of $1400 for a B.W. only. This one is a nice example, and if the holster is the right year (or close) and decent, I'll ballpark it around $2000. You see these advertised at $2200 and on up, but I'm doubting that they get it.
Now the numbering issue is an entirely 'nuther matter, I'm looking at the run-of-the-mill 'widow.
dju

[scottar15]

Okay after looking over the Luger again and looking for that (a) it does have that "a" there so as according to John, it is a low number 41. A or B block. That being said will that clear up the number issue David mentioned and does that effect collector value?

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by scottar15

Okay after looking over the Luger again and looking for that (a) it does have that "a" there so as according to John, it is a low number 41. A or B block. That being said will that clear up the number issue David mentioned and does that effect collector value?

The SN, i.e. 271a, assuming all else about the gun is correct, and it appears so, does not affect the value one way or another. It is a late date 41byf with the features you would expect on the gun, i.e. Black Bakelite grips and a Type 6 magazine.

But which value are you speaking about? Buying it or selling?? Insuring it?? There are few absolutes in Luger collecting, or much else for that matter. David's numbers are certainly in the ball park.

The collector value of a complete rig for so-called Black Widows is much less than other guns that had serial numbered magazines. For example it would not be unusual for a totally correct, all matching rig with two magazines, tool and excellent holster to go for $3500 to 4000 or higher if in really excellent condition or the variation is rare.

But in this case, just get another Type 6 magazine, a SE655 stamped tool and have a decent holster and you have a rig. Since magazines are not numbered, the difficulty of getting a period correct, complete rig is removed. Hence much lower value.

John

[DavidJayUden]

It has no bearing on the value TO ME. Some collectors may find that reason to open their billfolds a bit wider, but I can neither rationalize nor can I predict that behavior.
To me, it is a nice gun. Period.
dju

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

It has no bearing on the value TO ME. Some collectors may find that reason to open their billfolds a bit wider, but I can neither rationalize nor can I predict that behavior.
To me, it is a nice gun. Period.
dju

David,

I'm glad you agree with me. The gun is a nice gun and should stand on those merits alone.

John

[scottar15]

Thank you guys, More for adding it to my insurance with the rest of the collection. I am keeping this one.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by guns3545

The collector value of a complete rig for so-called Black Widows is much less than other guns that had serial numbered magazines. For example it would not be unusual for a totally correct, all matching rig with two magazines, tool and excellent holster to go for $3500 to 4000 or higher if in really excellent condition or the variation is rare.

BW's magazines are not numbered, so there is no formula like x1.5 or x2.0. Period correct magazine comes much easier than matching magazine. That's can be considered being an advantage. The black grip panel looks cool, but carries one big disadvantage -- it's fragile. Don't shoot it with original grips on.