Out Of Sights

cirelaw · 08-31-2013, 07:37 PM

I realize I know nothing about the proper use of artillery sights. How do they work? What was their correct use? What does the numbers mean? How are they properly set? How accurate are they? Etc..~~~Eric

Edward Tinker · 08-31-2013, 08:21 PM

Eric, I am dumber than dumb on this subject - hopefully someone will teach us

ithacaartist · 08-31-2013, 09:55 PM

I can give you a start, Eric. The numbers are gradations in hundreds of meters. The say that the 800 meter mark is a bit "optimistic". I guess you'd push the button in to slide the keeper up to however many yards away you thought you were from the target, then start blazin' away. Before 1917, they were adjustable with the proper tool with two prongs on the end which fit into the two holes in the "snake-eyes"-head screw. I forget if this is for windage (side to side) or to fine tune the elevation, but I'm leaning toward elevation. Yeah, that's it--and the front sights of the earlier ones adjusted from side to side, using the same tool. With this combination, you'd be able to dial it right in. IIRC, the fine-adjustable business was phased out towards the end of WWI. Perhaps it was found by that time that one didn't usually have time to diddle around with fine-tuning the sights during combat!?

Stay tuned and somebody will probably add more details, dates, etc.

Ron Wood · 08-31-2013, 10:11 PM

Just to give some flippant answers: 1) They work well; 2) They were used to inflict damage or suppressive fire on opposing forces; 3) The numbers are increments of 100 meters in range to bring point of impact of a fired round to close to that range; 4) They are properly set when the point of impact is at the range of the opposing force

Now, to be more specific: The cross bar with the button is a yoke that engages the curved ramp on the sight base and slides on the ladder bar (the shiney part with the numbers on it). As the cross bar moves forward on the base, the curved ramp elevates the ladder bar. The ladder bar has a series of notches on it side that serve as a stop for the spring loaded pawl activated by the button on the cross bar...when you push the button it disengages from the notch it is currently in and re-engages a notch at the range you wish to set. The "hinge" on the front of the ladder bar is not set perpendicular to the bore but rather at a slight angle. This causes the rear of the sight to move to the left as the sight is raised...at long ranges this compensates for the drift of the bullet imparted by the right-hand twist of the rifiling.

With respect to how accurate they are...I would not want to be the recipiant of a shot fired at any range, even out at the preposterously optimistic range of 800 meters.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-31-2013, 10:22 PM

If you believe German tests a 9MM fired to 800 meters would penetrate a horses skull or a steel helmet.

cirelaw · 08-31-2013, 10:27 PM

How convenient!! How did they determine distances? Did they estiminate or use some sort of early scope?

Ron Wood · 08-31-2013, 10:48 PM

Probably based on the ballistic properties of the round, barrel length and testing.

CAP Black · 08-31-2013, 11:24 PM

There was nothing to keep the soldier from going to the range - prior to combat - and test firing and dialing in the gun with the adjustable sights. Together with the wooden stock and practice, the shooter can get rather proficient with this weapon. I am surprised that more members don't mention about firing their artillerys. I have an old warhorse 1915 that appears to have been in several wars: no bluing left, etc., barrel doesn't look great - but she shoots real good.
Jack

DavidJayUden · 09-01-2013, 01:04 AM

Also please note that as the sight raises, it also begins to favor one side, right. That is to reportedly compensate for the downrange drift of the spinning bullet, which also spins to the right.
There would be a study project for someone...
dju

Ron Wood · 09-01-2013, 01:40 AM

David,
You are correct that the rear sight moves laterally to compensate for the downrange drift. It moves to the left to compensate for the spin to the right of the bullet.

cirelaw · 09-01-2013, 09:25 AM

Simple but Ingenious!!!!

Sergio Natali · 09-01-2013, 09:30 AM

As usual Ron gave a very good explanation. I'm not an expert at all about this sort of Lugers, but as I read they were created to protect machine guns and artillery unit crews, since the German Army was looking for a shorter weapon than the K98.
It's interesting to know that when you raise the leaf-site to the 800 m position it shows a 7° movement to the left. Apparently this was made on purpose to compensate the rifling on the 200 mm barrel that gives a twist in flight to the bullet, so somehow allows to get a correct point of impact. I' m not so sure that a 9mm fired to 800 meters could penetrate a horses skull or a steel helmet., in fact 800 metres it's a very long distance, I just think at the few times I 've been long range shooting with my Remington rifle and scope, believe me that a 300 meter shot it's already a long distance and it's not that easy at all to get a small target with a 308 Winch. never mind a 9mm.

cirelaw · 09-01-2013, 10:43 AM

How were and why were these foward sights adjusted?

Edward Tinker · 09-01-2013, 11:23 AM

Eric, only certain years were 'fine tune'. darned if I can remember which years, early ones i know

Ron Wood · 09-01-2013, 11:41 AM

The fine tune (ft) sights started to be phased out in 1917 and you can find that year examples with various combinations of sights, e.g. ft on front and rear, ft on front only, ft on rear only, front and rear without ft.

Ron Wood · 09-01-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

How were and why were these foward sights adjusted?

The "fine tune" adjustments on both the front and rear sights were accomplished with a two-pronged spanner tool that fit the adjustment screws on both sights. The front adjustment was for windage and the rear adjustment was for elevation.

cirelaw · 09-01-2013, 11:50 AM

How often would there be a need the need for a sight adjustment tool? Once correctly set would it remain ok??

Norme · 09-01-2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The "fine tune" adjustments on both the front and rear sights were accomplished with a two-pronged spanner tool that fit the adjustment screws on both sights. The front adjustment was for windage and the rear adjustment was for elevation.

Eric, As Ron has said, both front and rear sights could be adjusted with a tool like this one. However, they were not intended to be fiddled with by troops in the field, they were set at the factory, but could be readjusted if necessary, by unit armorers.
Regards, Norm

cirelaw · 09-01-2013, 09:35 PM

1920 Carbine 4 position adjustable rear sight assembled to rear portion of barrel. See page 188, 'Lugers at Radom' PS nice wood work!

08-31-2013, 07:37 PM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Out Of Sights I realize I know nothing about the proper use of artillery sights. How do they work? What was their correct use? What does the numbers mean? How are they properly set? How accurate are they? Etc..~~~Eric Attached Thumbnails

08-31-2013, 09:55 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	I can give you a start, Eric. The numbers are gradations in hundreds of meters. The say that the 800 meter mark is a bit "optimistic". I guess you'd push the button in to slide the keeper up to however many yards away you thought you were from the target, then start blazin' away. Before 1917, they were adjustable with the proper tool with two prongs on the end which fit into the two holes in the "snake-eyes"-head screw. I forget if this is for windage (side to side) or to fine tune the elevation, but I'm leaning toward elevation. Yeah, that's it--and the front sights of the earlier ones adjusted from side to side, using the same tool. With this combination, you'd be able to dial it right in. IIRC, the fine-adjustable business was phased out towards the end of WWI. Perhaps it was found by that time that one didn't usually have time to diddle around with fine-tuning the sights during combat!? Stay tuned and somebody will probably add more details, dates, etc. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-31-2013, 10:11 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Just to give some flippant answers: 1) They work well; 2) They were used to inflict damage or suppressive fire on opposing forces; 3) The numbers are increments of 100 meters in range to bring point of impact of a fired round to close to that range; 4) They are properly set when the point of impact is at the range of the opposing force Now, to be more specific: The cross bar with the button is a yoke that engages the curved ramp on the sight base and slides on the ladder bar (the shiney part with the numbers on it). As the cross bar moves forward on the base, the curved ramp elevates the ladder bar. The ladder bar has a series of notches on it side that serve as a stop for the spring loaded pawl activated by the button on the cross bar...when you push the button it disengages from the notch it is currently in and re-engages a notch at the range you wish to set. The "hinge" on the front of the ladder bar is not set perpendicular to the bore but rather at a slight angle. This causes the rear of the sight to move to the left as the sight is raised...at long ranges this compensates for the drift of the bullet imparted by the right-hand twist of the rifiling. With respect to how accurate they are...I would not want to be the recipiant of a shot fired at any range, even out at the preposterously optimistic range of 800 meters. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-31-2013, 10:22 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	If you believe German tests a 9MM fired to 800 meters would penetrate a horses skull or a steel helmet. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-31-2013, 10:27 PM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	8 Settings How convenient!! How did they determine distances? Did they estiminate or use some sort of early scope? Attached Thumbnails

08-31-2013, 08:21 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Eric, I am dumber than dumb on this subject - hopefully someone will teach us

08-31-2013, 10:48 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Probably based on the ballistic properties of the round, barrel length and testing. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-31-2013, 11:24 PM	#8
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	There was nothing to keep the soldier from going to the range - prior to combat - and test firing and dialing in the gun with the adjustable sights. Together with the wooden stock and practice, the shooter can get rather proficient with this weapon. I am surprised that more members don't mention about firing their artillerys. I have an old warhorse 1915 that appears to have been in several wars: no bluing left, etc., barrel doesn't look great - but she shoots real good. Jack

09-01-2013, 01:04 AM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Also please note that as the sight raises, it also begins to favor one side, right. That is to reportedly compensate for the downrange drift of the spinning bullet, which also spins to the right. There would be a study project for someone... dju

09-01-2013, 01:40 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	David, You are correct that the rear sight moves laterally to compensate for the downrange drift. It moves to the left to compensate for the spin to the right of the bullet. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-01-2013, 09:25 AM	#11
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Simple but Ingenious!!!!

09-01-2013, 09:30 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	As usual Ron gave a very good explanation. I'm not an expert at all about this sort of Lugers, but as I read they were created to protect machine guns and artillery unit crews, since the German Army was looking for a shorter weapon than the K98. It's interesting to know that when you raise the leaf-site to the 800 m position it shows a 7° movement to the left. Apparently this was made on purpose to compensate the rifling on the 200 mm barrel that gives a twist in flight to the bullet, so somehow allows to get a correct point of impact. I' m not so sure that a 9mm fired to 800 meters could penetrate a horses skull or a steel helmet., in fact 800 metres it's a very long distance, I just think at the few times I 've been long range shooting with my Remington rifle and scope, believe me that a 300 meter shot it's already a long distance and it's not that easy at all to get a small target with a 308 Winch. never mind a 9mm.

09-01-2013, 10:43 AM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	How were and why were these foward sights adjusted? Attached Thumbnails

09-01-2013, 11:23 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Eric, only certain years were 'fine tune'. darned if I can remember which years, early ones i know

09-01-2013, 11:41 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	The fine tune (ft) sights started to be phased out in 1917 and you can find that year examples with various combinations of sights, e.g. ft on front and rear, ft on front only, ft on rear only, front and rear without ft. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-01-2013, 11:50 AM	#17
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	How often would there be a need the need for a sight adjustment tool? Once correctly set would it remain ok??

09-01-2013, 09:35 PM	#19
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	1920 Carbine 4 position adjustable rear sight assembled to rear portion of barrel. See page 188, 'Lugers at Radom' PS nice wood work! Attached Thumbnails