Gomann-Grunow Telescoping Stock

Maestro · 10-22-2013, 12:22 AM

here's a rare Stock I wanted to share with everyone that may not have seen it

Maestro · 10-22-2013, 12:24 AM

Apparently one of three known to exist

Quote:

There are only a couple now known to exist today. This example was purchased from an American auction a few years back by Dr. Sturgess. Another example was sold by that same auction house a couple of years ago and a third example is in a notable foreign collection.

Dwight Gruber · 10-22-2013, 07:46 AM

This item was pulled from the recent Julia auction of the Sturgess collection until they can get a determination from BATF that it is legal.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 10-22-2013, 11:39 AM

If they were selling the item as it is shown above... they will wait a LONG time for BATFE approval.

This stock is OBVIOUSLY NOT a vintage item... and does not belong on a military artillery Luger. It is a novelty item made up by some gunsmith/machinist for a Luger owner who didn't know any better. It would be a good prop in a movie.

If you want to shoot with this stock (or a stock like it) attached to a Luger (and you live in the USA), you will have to pay the $200 tax to the BATFE ahead of time for construction of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) as defined in the National Firearms Act of 1934. It would be a good prop in a movie, but not on the range without the tax stamp.

This is just my opinion, but after 50 years of looking at and studying Lugers and their accessories... dealing with ATF, and being a former gunsmith and hobby home machinist, I would bet money on my thesis...

Ron Wood · 10-22-2013, 11:59 AM

John,

I might take you up on that bet. I was the one that alerted Julia Auctions to seek BATFE exception prior to offering the stock for sale. It is a vintage item, manufactured by a known firm, not a gunsmith one-off creation. There are at least 3 known examples, one of which was actually sold at auction in the US a few years back...it evidently did not make it on to the ATF radar!

I rather expect that it will receive BATFE approval in a relatively short time. Its rarity and value places it in the same category as the Benke-Thiemann stock. The B-T stock is also not a military accessory, both stocks are commercial items probably created in hopes of military adoption which never materialized.

The reason to petition the BATFE for exemption from the NFA is to remove it from the category of short barreled rifle and thereby make it accessable to collectors for legal ownership without the $200 tax stamp.

John Sabato · 10-22-2013, 12:16 PM

Ron, thanks for the education. Your knowledge in this matter is greatly appreciated.

I am aware of the Benke-Thiemann stock, and know one of the owners of it (he sports a grey beard

)... but have never seen such an example as this one. I hope the purchaser of the one sold at auction "a few years back" that missed ATF scrutiny... registered it upon acquisition...

If you are in the knowledge loop, please let us all know the outcome of the petition to make it C&R when and if it happens.

My question would be, what Luger would this stock be associated with for exemption from the NFA, and inclusion on the C&R list? The stock would not be in violation of the NFA by itself, and the gun it is attached to in the photo appears to be a standard WW1 DWM Artillery Luger. Then there would be a question on whether or not reproductions of this stock would be permissible with the associated model Luger... or any Luger?

Boggles the mind how this will be resolved.

thanks again Ron,

-John

lugerholsterrepair · 10-22-2013, 01:02 PM

I rather expect that it will receive BATFE approval in a relatively short time. Being a complete bonehead..I would have to wonder why anyone at ATF would care one way or the other? For so few stocks..A giant buracracy is going to change C&R regs for 3 known stocks? Seems implausable at best...

Ron Wood · 10-22-2013, 01:38 PM

At the time the Benke-Thiemann stock was exempted there were less than a half-dozen examples known, so it is no stretch to think the C&R regs will be changed for this stock.

It is the same process that occurred for the Navy, LP08, Ideal and B-T stocks...someone had to petition the BATFE to have them exempted so that collectors could have them.

Obviously someone at the ATF cares one way or another. Luger stocks are not the only items that come under BATFE regs. There are literally hundreds of guns, to include a ton of short barreled Winchesters, that had to be petitioned for exemption and are listed in detail (by serial number!) in ATF Publication 5300-11 last published in 2007 and with various revisions thru 2010. That "giant bureaucracy" is alive and well and involved in the regulation of C&R firearms. Believe it.

Ron Wood · 10-22-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

My question would be, what Luger would this stock be associated with for exemption from the NFA, and inclusion on the C&R list? The stock would not be in violation of the NFA by itself, and the gun it is attached to in the photo appears to be a standard WW1 DWM Artillery Luger. Then there would be a question on whether or not reproductions of this stock would be permissible with the associated model Luger... or any Luger?

-John

John,
I suspect that a Luger associated with this stock would be vague as to model. The wording for the B-T stock simply states "various Lugers". The G-G stock was not made for a specific model Luger and the LP-08 in the auction is a parts gun that simply serves as a platform to mount the stock.

P.S. I have heard that the G-G stock that sold a few years back went to Europe, so no registration involved.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-22-2013, 02:32 PM

OK! I believe if you believe! It's a cool stock..riddle me this then..IF this stock is approved would reproductions be allowed like repro Artillery & Navy?

Ron Wood · 10-22-2013, 02:54 PM

Riddle answer...Only if someone petitioned the BATFE to exclude them also. The exclusion of the reproduction Artillery and Navy stocks came about only because Odin specifically requested the exclusion and BATFE granted it. And BATFE might or might not similarly grant an exclusion for a repro G-G stock, who knows?

Maestro · 10-22-2013, 10:50 PM

does anyone know what the estimated value of this stock was before it was pulled? or what the previous one sold for?

alanint · 10-22-2013, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I rather expect that it will receive BATFE approval in a relatively short time. Being a complete bonehead..I would have to wonder why anyone at ATF would care one way or the other? For so few stocks..A giant buracracy is going to change C&R regs for 3 known stocks? Seems implausable at best...

Jerry, if you read through the C&R List, there are a number of INDIVIDUAL weapons, (by model, serial number, description), which are on there. If you came across an unusual or historic weapon, (even being once owned by a celebrity could potentially quality), the ATF will consider it for inclusion on the C&R List. There are no hard rules for C&R qualification. You simply have to contact them with the firearm or accessories description and why you think it qualifies and ATF will make a ruling.

10-22-2013, 12:22 AM	#1
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	Gomann-Grunow Telescoping Stock here's a rare Stock I wanted to share with everyone that may not have seen it Attached Thumbnails

10-22-2013, 11:39 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	If they were selling the item as it is shown above... they will wait a LONG time for BATFE approval. This stock is OBVIOUSLY NOT a vintage item... and does not belong on a military artillery Luger. It is a novelty item made up by some gunsmith/machinist for a Luger owner who didn't know any better. It would be a good prop in a movie. If you want to shoot with this stock (or a stock like it) attached to a Luger (and you live in the USA), you will have to pay the $200 tax to the BATFE ahead of time for construction of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) as defined in the National Firearms Act of 1934. It would be a good prop in a movie, but not on the range without the tax stamp. This is just my opinion, but after 50 years of looking at and studying Lugers and their accessories... dealing with ATF, and being a former gunsmith and hobby home machinist, I would bet money on my thesis... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2013, 11:59 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	John, I might take you up on that bet. I was the one that alerted Julia Auctions to seek BATFE exception prior to offering the stock for sale. It is a vintage item, manufactured by a known firm, not a gunsmith one-off creation. There are at least 3 known examples, one of which was actually sold at auction in the US a few years back...it evidently did not make it on to the ATF radar! I rather expect that it will receive BATFE approval in a relatively short time. Its rarity and value places it in the same category as the Benke-Thiemann stock. The B-T stock is also not a military accessory, both stocks are commercial items probably created in hopes of military adoption which never materialized. The reason to petition the BATFE for exemption from the NFA is to remove it from the category of short barreled rifle and thereby make it accessable to collectors for legal ownership without the $200 tax stamp. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-22-2013, 12:16 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Ron, thanks for the education. Your knowledge in this matter is greatly appreciated. I am aware of the Benke-Thiemann stock, and know one of the owners of it (he sports a grey beard )... but have never seen such an example as this one. I hope the purchaser of the one sold at auction "a few years back" that missed ATF scrutiny... registered it upon acquisition... If you are in the knowledge loop, please let us all know the outcome of the petition to make it C&R when and if it happens. My question would be, what Luger would this stock be associated with for exemption from the NFA, and inclusion on the C&R list? The stock would not be in violation of the NFA by itself, and the gun it is attached to in the photo appears to be a standard WW1 DWM Artillery Luger. Then there would be a question on whether or not reproductions of this stock would be permissible with the associated model Luger... or any Luger? Boggles the mind how this will be resolved. thanks again Ron, -John __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2013, 01:02 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I rather expect that it will receive BATFE approval in a relatively short time. Being a complete bonehead..I would have to wonder why anyone at ATF would care one way or the other? For so few stocks..A giant buracracy is going to change C&R regs for 3 known stocks? Seems implausable at best... __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-22-2013, 07:46 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	This item was pulled from the recent Julia auction of the Sturgess collection until they can get a determination from BATF that it is legal. --Dwight

10-22-2013, 01:38 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	At the time the Benke-Thiemann stock was exempted there were less than a half-dozen examples known, so it is no stretch to think the C&R regs will be changed for this stock. It is the same process that occurred for the Navy, LP08, Ideal and B-T stocks...someone had to petition the BATFE to have them exempted so that collectors could have them. Obviously someone at the ATF cares one way or another. Luger stocks are not the only items that come under BATFE regs. There are literally hundreds of guns, to include a ton of short barreled Winchesters, that had to be petitioned for exemption and are listed in detail (by serial number!) in ATF Publication 5300-11 last published in 2007 and with various revisions thru 2010. That "giant bureaucracy" is alive and well and involved in the regulation of C&R firearms. Believe it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-22-2013, 02:32 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	OK! I believe if you believe! It's a cool stock..riddle me this then..IF this stock is approved would reproductions be allowed like repro Artillery & Navy? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-22-2013, 02:54 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Riddle answer...Only if someone petitioned the BATFE to exclude them also. The exclusion of the reproduction Artillery and Navy stocks came about only because Odin specifically requested the exclusion and BATFE granted it. And BATFE might or might not similarly grant an exclusion for a repro G-G stock, who knows? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-22-2013, 10:50 PM	#12
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	does anyone know what the estimated value of this stock was before it was pulled? or what the previous one sold for?