The mysterious Spandau Luger

Brandon · 04-19-2002, 09:49 PM

Does anyone have Rock solid proof that a Spandau

Luger ever existed? I'm just full of questions

Brandon

Thor · 04-19-2002, 10:01 PM

I think those will be controversial for some time to come! Some adamantly believe they are not correct weapons and some do. I find myself somewhere in the middle. BTW, you have opened up a can of worms that we JUST finished putting them back in the can! Oh....such is the life of Luger collectors. Very little is straight forward to all. Thor

Ted's Luger Strawing Service

04-19-2002, 10:43 PM

Here comes another good debate! Hey Thor let's just sit back and watch

Brandon

Roadkill · 04-19-2002, 11:10 PM

Check out the picture on page three, supposedly 200 were struck with Spandau crowned logo, they say five known to exist.

http://www.gunssavelife.com/august2001secure.pdf

roadkill

Roadkill · 04-19-2002, 11:23 PM

Simpson has one for sale here.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/one_of_a_kind.htm

rk

04-20-2002, 12:00 AM

The Spandau that is for sale at Simpson's to the best of my knowledge belongs to Mike Morris of Texas. Last time we spoke he was selling it for $15,000.00 and had no luck. Now Simpson with more coverage in our community may have better luck. At least that is what Mike had said to me late last year. As you can see Simpson is trying to make a little profit selling at $18,000.00 Mike is a pretty straight forward guy and has been collecting probably for 40 years. I am sure he wouldn't mind a call or two and can easily verify the gun as one of the few that still remain today.

04-20-2002, 12:12 AM

I stand corrected Simpson is only selling for $15,000.00. Just check the ad. The $18,000 came from information I received from Mike, I guess Simpson is trying to sell for what Mike originally wanted taking his commission from the sale and giving the rest to Mike. Sorry guys for the wrong figures.

SteveM · 04-20-2002, 12:17 AM

Yes, they do exist; I saw all of them on display at a NAPCA show several years ago. SteveM

04-20-2002, 12:27 AM

Anyone ever examine and measure a Spandau luger? Is the surface pattern and thickness of parts less than Erfurt 1918's and similar lugers beleived to be the source parts for the Spandau's?

It could be these were simply ground and stamped with a Spandau marking. Then large s/n stamps were put on these. To my knowledge, none have appeared in recent imports from the Eastern countries. One would expect to see one or two as there were around 10K lugers imported from the Ukraine around 1996.

For that matter, where are the Krieghoffs that should have appeared in those imports?

bill m · 04-20-2002, 12:42 AM

Supposedly (1) known dated 1917 and (8) known dated 1918 with serial numbers of 12-16-22-50-76-97-101-108-and 177 - according to Still in "Imperial Lugers", and states "The survival rate, 1 out of 20, is suspiciously high".

The guys that have them think they are real -- most of the guys who don't have one think they were recently made up. Is very possible that the same guy made up all of them. I have heard the same thing about the Krieghoff 1945, that one guy made all of them. For $15,000 it seems one would want absolute proof they did exist in WWI and are not some post war gunshop experiment. There are supposedly some faked ones floating around with the stamp on the toggle in the wrong place?

John D. · 04-20-2002, 12:46 AM

Hi Bill,

You may want to contact Mr. Gibson for a very recent update (in the past several weeks, BTW) about the 1945 Kriegs. A few have been verified (at a cost of several thousand per piece) as being original. Not all 1945s are faked.

Orv Reichert · 04-20-2002, 12:48 AM

I don't know about the Spandau, but I owned a Krieghoff with 1945 date which I bought in late 1945 or early 1946 [$60] and traded the same year for a '94 Winchester 30-30 because there was no 9mm ammo.

Orv Reichert

John D. · 04-20-2002, 12:57 AM

It's costing more to disprove the rumors about their originality - then what you sold your's for!!!

And you thought it was a "Navy" Luger since it had an anchor on the toggle.. I'd tell you what the last "1945" Krieg sold for - but you wouldn't sleep tonight..!!!

bill m · 04-20-2002, 01:15 AM

Hi John,

Have heard for years from different collectors that one guy made a whole bunch of the 1945 dated Krieghoff's, and some insisted that he made all of them? Know a couple of collectors that have sold theirs because they just didn't feel theirs were correct. Glad to learn that at least some of them are original. Be interesting to know how they determined which was which? They are an odd model though with the different acceptance marks and finish.

If you're interested, I heard of a 1943 with two matching magazines for sale in excellent condition. Have his number if you're interested. Big bucks though.

Orv Reichert · 04-20-2002, 02:07 AM

I know I told the story before...but, what the heck?...I am old and inclined to tell the same stores over and over again!

Orv Reichert

John D. · 04-20-2002, 10:18 AM

Hi Bill,

Yep - I've heard the same thing as you - that some guy (well - actually the rumor was there were two guys "involved" in the scam) put out a number of faked 1945s. Over the last two years, however - some fairly extensive tests were done to determine of the few that are known collection pieces, are they original or forgeries? Since it's not my data to share on the exact nature of the tests, what I can say is that the testing proceedure recently turned out positive that the "documented" pieces are correct. And as you know - several "1945s" have recently changed hands, which I think helped spur the testing itself. For that - you are right on target with the comments on how many out there may, in fact, be forgeries?? I don't know if the rumor is totally false or there are some "faked" 1945s? I'm not sure there is any way to forecast that number, either..??

However - for a piece that commands a $25,000 selling price - I'd be looking at every mark, stratch, stamp - whatever compared side-by-side to a documented original - even if I had to make a plane trip to make that comparision

Thanks for the lead on the 1943 too..! I'd love to find out more if you'd like to pop me over a private e-mail..! Thanks!

John D. · 04-20-2002, 10:20 AM

to your age. As you know - I *answered* your post each time.. LOL!!!

04-20-2002, 09:51 PM

Wasn't this same guy selling a spurious SVW45 E/L Police stamped P38 about two years ago in Texas?

If so, it had been reported and discussed in AUTOMAG that it was a complete military gun with a phony Eagle L and Commercial proof stamps on it, too.....

Makes one wonder, right?

Who know what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

The Shadow knows!

hehehehehehehehehehe

04-19-2002, 09:49 PM	#1
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The mysterious Spandau Luger Does anyone have Rock solid proof that a Spandau Luger ever existed? I'm just full of questions Brandon

04-19-2002, 10:01 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: The mysterious Spandau Luger I think those will be controversial for some time to come! Some adamantly believe they are not correct weapons and some do. I find myself somewhere in the middle. BTW, you have opened up a can of worms that we JUST finished putting them back in the can! Oh....such is the life of Luger collectors. Very little is straight forward to all. Thor Ted's Luger Strawing Service

04-19-2002, 10:43 PM	#3
Brandon Metcalf Guest Posts: n/a	I've done it again! Here comes another good debate! Hey Thor let's just sit back and watch Brandon

04-19-2002, 11:10 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Re: I've done it again! Check out the picture on page three, supposedly 200 were struck with Spandau crowned logo, they say five known to exist. http://www.gunssavelife.com/august2001secure.pdf roadkill

04-19-2002, 11:23 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Re: I've done it again! Simpson has one for sale here. http://www.simpsonltd.com/one_of_a_kind.htm rk

04-20-2002, 12:00 AM	#6
Sam Buscemi Guest Posts: n/a	Re: I've done it again! The Spandau that is for sale at Simpson's to the best of my knowledge belongs to Mike Morris of Texas. Last time we spoke he was selling it for $15,000.00 and had no luck. Now Simpson with more coverage in our community may have better luck. At least that is what Mike had said to me late last year. As you can see Simpson is trying to make a little profit selling at $18,000.00 Mike is a pretty straight forward guy and has been collecting probably for 40 years. I am sure he wouldn't mind a call or two and can easily verify the gun as one of the few that still remain today.

04-20-2002, 12:12 AM	#7
Sam Buscemi Guest Posts: n/a	Re: I've done it again! I stand corrected Simpson is only selling for $15,000.00. Just check the ad. The $18,000 came from information I received from Mike, I guess Simpson is trying to sell for what Mike originally wanted taking his commission from the sale and giving the rest to Mike. Sorry guys for the wrong figures.

04-20-2002, 12:17 AM	#8
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Re: The mysterious Spandau Luger Yes, they do exist; I saw all of them on display at a NAPCA show several years ago. SteveM

04-20-2002, 12:27 AM	#9
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The mysterious Spandau Luger Anyone ever examine and measure a Spandau luger? Is the surface pattern and thickness of parts less than Erfurt 1918's and similar lugers beleived to be the source parts for the Spandau's? It could be these were simply ground and stamped with a Spandau marking. Then large s/n stamps were put on these. To my knowledge, none have appeared in recent imports from the Eastern countries. One would expect to see one or two as there were around 10K lugers imported from the Ukraine around 1996. For that matter, where are the Krieghoffs that should have appeared in those imports?

04-20-2002, 12:42 AM	#10
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not sure? Supposedly (1) known dated 1917 and (8) known dated 1918 with serial numbers of 12-16-22-50-76-97-101-108-and 177 - according to Still in "Imperial Lugers", and states "The survival rate, 1 out of 20, is suspiciously high". The guys that have them think they are real -- most of the guys who don't have one think they were recently made up. Is very possible that the same guy made up all of them. I have heard the same thing about the Krieghoff 1945, that one guy made all of them. For $15,000 it seems one would want absolute proof they did exist in WWI and are not some post war gunshop experiment. There are supposedly some faked ones floating around with the stamp on the toggle in the wrong place?

04-20-2002, 12:46 AM	#11
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Krieg 1945... Hi Bill, You may want to contact Mr. Gibson for a very recent update (in the past several weeks, BTW) about the 1945 Kriegs. A few have been verified (at a cost of several thousand per piece) as being original. Not all 1945s are faked.

04-20-2002, 12:48 AM	#12
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1945 Krieghoff I don't know about the Spandau, but I owned a Krieghoff with 1945 date which I bought in late 1945 or early 1946 [$60] and traded the same year for a '94 Winchester 30-30 because there was no 9mm ammo. Orv Reichert

04-20-2002, 12:57 AM	#13
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Heck, Orv...!!! It's costing more to disprove the rumors about their originality - then what you sold your's for!!! And you thought it was a "Navy" Luger since it had an anchor on the toggle.. I'd tell you what the last "1945" Krieg sold for - but you wouldn't sleep tonight..!!!

04-20-2002, 01:15 AM	#14
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Krieg 1945... Hi John, Have heard for years from different collectors that one guy made a whole bunch of the 1945 dated Krieghoff's, and some insisted that he made all of them? Know a couple of collectors that have sold theirs because they just didn't feel theirs were correct. Glad to learn that at least some of them are original. Be interesting to know how they determined which was which? They are an odd model though with the different acceptance marks and finish. If you're interested, I heard of a 1943 with two matching magazines for sale in excellent condition. Have his number if you're interested. Big bucks though.

04-20-2002, 02:07 AM	#15
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know!! I know I told the story before...but, what the heck?...I am old and inclined to tell the same stores over and over again! Orv Reichert

04-20-2002, 10:18 AM	#16
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Re: Krieg 1945... Hi Bill, Yep - I've heard the same thing as you - that some guy (well - actually the rumor was there were two guys "involved" in the scam) put out a number of faked 1945s. Over the last two years, however - some fairly extensive tests were done to determine of the few that are known collection pieces, are they original or forgeries? Since it's not my data to share on the exact nature of the tests, what I can say is that the testing proceedure recently turned out positive that the "documented" pieces are correct. And as you know - several "1945s" have recently changed hands, which I think helped spur the testing itself. For that - you are right on target with the comments on how many out there may, in fact, be forgeries?? I don't know if the rumor is totally false or there are some "faked" 1945s? I'm not sure there is any way to forecast that number, either..?? However - for a piece that commands a $25,000 selling price - I'd be looking at every mark, stratch, stamp - whatever compared side-by-side to a documented original - even if I had to make a plane trip to make that comparision Thanks for the lead on the 1943 too..! I'd love to find out more if you'd like to pop me over a private e-mail..! Thanks!

04-20-2002, 10:20 AM	#17
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Then I must be catching up... to your age. As you know - I answered your post each time.. LOL!!!

04-20-2002, 09:51 PM	#18
The Shadow Guest Posts: n/a	Mr. Morris Wasn't this same guy selling a spurious SVW45 E/L Police stamped P38 about two years ago in Texas? If so, it had been reported and discussed in AUTOMAG that it was a complete military gun with a phony Eagle L and Commercial proof stamps on it, too..... Makes one wonder, right? Who know what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows! hehehehehehehehehehe