The Cartridge Counter, Awesome

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Heres what Jones wrote in his book 'Luger Variations' in 1959

That's the 1906 Russian...The 1902 Cartridge Counter is on pg 75...

I'll let you post it...I'm tired...

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

A "local" gun store (temporarily local) has what they're advertising as a "Mauser 1908 Cartridge Counter." I assume this is a second generation/re-issue, like the 1970s Parabellums?

http://exclusivefirearms.com/product...ge-Counter-9mm

Not a bad price considering the one at auction (I think it was Julia's), sold for $6k + commission!!

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

~ As a side note Bob Simpson is listing a more current Mauser CC! http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=31738 ~Eric

Simpson's is even cheaper, however, it's not the LE of 250, & lacks the accessories.

[Mauser 712]

Unbelievable that the Mauser factory even made the same error when they made the 'M1906 Russian' Luger as a commemorative piece. I guess that the those German directors at the Mauser factory made mistakes by not doing their research as time goes by.

Albert

[alvin]

How to explain the cross rifle symbol on some FN 1900? Those FN 1900 are believed being Russian.

[Mauser 712]

The DWM factory had a large shareholding in the FN factory, around 80%.

During the imperial era, there were two triads between England, France and Russia and the other Germany, Austria and Italy. The kaiser who had influence over his allies did not necessarily want his national arms industries to conduct business directly with Russia, instead he gave special permission to an important factory such as DWM to use their shareholding to conduct limited business with the Russians like hiding behind a screen. Commercial Lugers were sold by a few dealers in Russia, like Mauser C96 pistol being sold by English dealers such as Westley Richards and Cogswell & Harrison. English dealers also marketed these firearms to other dealers in colonial countries such as South Africa.

The national business relationships during the early imperial era was quite interesting.

Albert

[cirelaw]

In regards to the Russian maybe this might help ~~http://www.landofborchardt.com/other.html

[Mauser 712]

Hi Eric, give me a break from Chuck's story on the Russian Lugers - it is wrong and a myth.

[alvin]

This CC attracted me for a few minutes. But I changed my mind. Still has a little bit money to spend this year, I had a standalone C96 stock acquired back a while ago, but it did not fit any of my "shooters" (I mean, collectibles, but I shoot them occasionally), need to find a gun to fit it. May the coming one fit this stocks.. hopefully.

[cirelaw]

Dan, whether he is correct doesn't affect my decision and mearly a good topic for discussion. As a prior attorney, I'm here to present the position of those who decide to address the topic whether perceived wrong or right. What points do you disagree as they can be discussed and corrected. Lugers are addicting as hundred years later there still a topic of discussion. Often times the real answer has been lost to time yet still relevent today. What other firearm draws so many opinions or renewed history. Everyone of mine has its' own history and prestige and are therefore always important which fuels my continueing addiction. Thank you for your position~~ Eric

[cirelaw]

One more point, Chuck Whitacker, I believe thats his name deserves praise and a heartfelt thanks. Where else can one find a plethora of almost every type of luger, great photographs, historic perspective and so much more. I think he manages to address the numerous topics so well! What more its FREE! He is not trying a book or royalties! We all owe him a hug! Eric

[Mauser 712]

Hi Eric,

You are welcome to hug and kiss Chuck Whittacker by believing some of the false information that he writes on his web site. CW is not doing a good service to the Luger society in my opinion and he has tried to suck up to important experts like Charles Kenyon to receive acceptance of a few Lugers in his collection which are suspicious. He is a coward who wants to show off his collection/archive from behind a wall because he has an inferior complex. We wants to try and 'razzle and dazzle' collectors with attractive images and misleading graphical information so one day he can screw a few people. Let's see how far he will get with his M1904 Navy made from various parts which looks like it was never handled in over 100 years, and his M1900 Russian Luger which is a total fake. When that day happens, maybe you will defend him as his attorney. In the mean time polish up on your Russian and Bulgarian

Enjoy,
Albert

[cirelaw]

Hi Albert, His whole article can't be wrong! Is there anything to you can agree on so we can agree on??

[alvin]

Albert -- This is leading to a more interesting direction. Regarding landofborchart's M1904 Navy parts gun, could you open a topic with picture and text illustration to show the detail? Not collecting Lugers, but that must be very useful not only to Luger collectors, but also to the whole C&R community..

[Mauser 712]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Hi Albert, His whole article can't be wrong! Is there anything to you can agree on so we can agree on??

Eric,

I did not say the whole (Russian) article or his web site were wrong, instead I was meaning that his source(s) of information are wrong and the way he puts together a story. A serious collector cannot only use 'millimeters, degrees and graphic illustrations (i.e. chamber markings and images from literature)' to reach conclusions about certain Lugers. Most of the information on his web site is based on technical measurements, some random photos, a few letters and obsolete data. He hardly - if any - mentions the highest standards of workmanship at the DWM factory or any thing about German heritage.

When I study a subject, whether it is products from DWM, Mauser or Walther factory, I consider more important factors such as what influenced changes from the international markets and the politics behind it - where CW is often lacking. I also have an enormous archive from where I can also obtain my research and knowledge. Furthermore, I make a big effort to even visit collectors in other foreign countries to personally listen to their input and examine their collector items when CW has probably never traveled outside of the US. His method of 'education' is quite lame and narrow-minded.

Albert

[Mauser 712]

Originally Posted by alvin

Albert -- This is leading to a more interesting direction. Regarding landofborchart's M1904 Navy parts gun, could you open a topic with picture and text illustration to show the detail? Not collecting Lugers, but that must be very useful not only to Luger collectors, but also to the whole C&R community..

Hello Alvin,

It is not necessary to open a new topic about LOB's M1904 Navy Luger, but some time ago he managed to find (or construct) a breech block with the smaller extractor years for his this Navy Luger. As the barrel between a M1904 and M1906 Navy is different (the M1904 has a 'bull' (not tapered) barrel), it is possible that the barrel on that M1904 Navy was also manufactured. It could be easily determined by looking for a 'gas ring' inside the chamber area which is very, very difficult to create. Since he did not want to show me this Navy Luger when I visited him in 2002 when we were friendly, I presume that the barrel is a reproduction to satisfy his desire. Last but not least, this Navy looks brand new and the finish is definitely not genuine. He has never posted images on his web site showing this Navy Luger dismantled. The work on this M1904 Navy Luger is good, but it is NOT factory genuine like he tries to make out with other Lugers depicted on his web site.

Now, you decide what game he is trying to play. You are probably aware that I am an expert on various Mauser pistols, and as a comparison, CW's knowledge on Lugers does not even come close to mine. He could learn a few things from me

Albert

[cirelaw]

This thread is like a luger court of law. Each witness comes to court/forum along with their respective opinion. Some jurors agree and others don't! They are instructed that they may accept, reject of mearly dismiss the opinions offered. In the end the jury must make their decision by the greater weight of the facts presented. As in human nature there is always different opinions as to the facts and evidence admitted. The standard is the greater weight of evidence. Opinions may be admitted only through 'expert witnesses' who then are examined based on the facts presented. Jurors can either agree with the whitness, disagree or reject outright! Here we are presented with Chuck Whittakers opinions. Some of us juriors will agree and others may disagree with the opinions tendered. Here in luger court much is the same! Whittaker has presented his opinion and conclusions based upon those facts as he perceives them! The witness veracity, first hand knowlege, monetary gain or hidden motives are examined. After years in a court room I've been taught sometimes in a hard way not to jump to conclusions until all the credible evidence is heard. The Latins have a saying, 'Res Ipsa Loquitor' ~The facts speak for themselves~ The luger story is rewritten amended and corrected almost daily and a part of our lives. This due especially to computer on-line research. This is the reason its so special
and fun! Each of us jurors share in its' history albeit changing and evolving and thats why we are so proud and sometimes corrected! Yes we all count~ Respecially Submitted~~~ Eric, Esq

[cirelaw]

Albert I just read your brilliant posts! Great facts, history and conclusions."Great Work" Your input is greatly appreciated! We will save you some turkey and cranberry sauce~~ Eric

[Mauser 712]

Thank you Eric. However, the limitation of the 'Luger Court' that exists today is biased allowing for the the manipulation of the facts as well as the reliance of incorrect information in order to satisfies a collectors motive.

Thanks for the turkey since I became 80% vegan, but turkeys and all other living animals have the same equal right to live like us human beings. Sadly, this freedom of life is not respected in most 'human courts' since many, many people on this planet accept the slaughter of over 100 BILLION animals per year for our consumption which actually shortens our lifespan. So, give the turkey a break.

Bon appetite,
Albert

[cirelaw]

Albert, I do!! We were assured our turkey commited suicide and therefor we were only picking up nature pieces but in fact performing a small service to mankind! Thats my story and I'm sticking to it! It helps me sleep at night although not much prevents me anymore~~ Tks, Me!