Only Two (2) .45 Luger Pistols...?

Pete Ebbink · 11-10-2002, 03:21 PM

Have been mulling over the 2 previous threads (from the August time frame) about how many .45 pistols DWM might have made.

It seemed that many folks will argue that only two (2) are authenticated.

My question was still to try to figure out how many DWM and GL actually made.

(And no, I am not talking about the recently surfaced .45 carbine...)

Here is an e-mail I sent to a friend that I would like to post for others opinions and comments :

" Do you think it likely that DWM made only 2 pistols and then let George hop on a boat, sail to America , and risk the ship going down with all .45 pistols ever made ? I do not think the GermanÃ¢??s would have been that silly. And do not forget, August Weiss is documented saying that there were Ã¢??no more than six (6) .45 pistols madeÃ¢?Â. "

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edward Tinker · 11-10-2002, 05:19 PM

We'll never know [img]wink.gif[/img]

That said, <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> I am as curious as George in knowing the details, that unless we come across a manifest, we won't ever know.
If I was private Eye, I'd find out what ship he came on and see if it was on the manifest. But then, I imagine he would have carried them in his personal luggage, so unless there are notes from observers, we just have so little to go on.

Johnny Peppers · 11-10-2002, 05:46 PM

Pete,
I think it is pretty well accepted that there were at least three of the .45 Lugers. Two were sent to Springfield and this is documented by surviving records, ane the third is the one that surfaced in the 1960 time frame. The third .45 is thought by some to be the backup to the two that were sent to Springfield. Remember that anything that came to the U.S. from Europe had to come by boat and no more would have been given to putting it on a boat than we would think of putting something on UPS or FEDX. Also, if I remember correctly Georg Luger delivered and demostrated the .45 Luger himself.

max2cam · 11-10-2002, 07:44 PM

As these were NOT a production run, but hand made in the "tool room" the bare minimum seems likely. The number 3 -- two brought over for testing and a backup at home -- seems plausible. Six sounds like more than needed, although some extra parts (frames?) could have been made and why Herr Weiss said "no more than six."

Just guessing...

Pete Ebbink · 11-11-2002, 10:28 AM

Johnny,

Of course you are correct, one pistol was thought to have been destroyed after the 1907 US Trials, so we presently have two other pistols "authenticated" and ownership known...

Does anyone know the details of how and where the .45 pistol uncovered in 1960 came from ? (I believe this 1960 find is the "Norton" gun.)

If this 3rd. gun stayed back in Germany, is there any documentation on how it got over to the USA and how Harry Jones came by it ?

Just interested in more of the history...

Finally, is there any info. out there about that gun # 5, that number keeps popping up from time to time. Any folks on the Forum seen this # 5 or have friends that have ?

I have contacted Mr.Michael Reese II about this, but did not receive a reply...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Johnny Peppers · 11-11-2002, 02:11 PM

Pete,
I have posted this earlier on the forum, but the story as related by the late Pat Redmond begins with the pistol being offered to Carl Wilson (who owned the Baby featured in Shooting Times) for either $4000 or $5000 (my memory slips me here). The pistol supposedly came out of Canada, and when Mr. Wilson met the owner at the airport to finalize the deal, the pistol had gone up $1000. On principal, Mr. Wilson turned the pistol down as he thought the price had been agreed upon between the buyer and the seller. Harry Jones then bought the pistol and sold it to Mr. Norton of Shreveport, Louisiana for a reported $10,000. Carl Wilson later admitted that turning down the .45 Luger was one of the worse decisions of his Luger collecting career.
The Norton .45 Luger is on public display at the Norton Gallery, and if you are ever in the vicinity of Shreveport you should make the trip to see the impressive pistol. There is absolutely no doubt as to it's authenticity.
In Shreveport there was a wrestler turned engraver by the name of Prudhomme. Mr. Norton admired his work and had several of his pistols engraved by Mr. Prudhomme. One of the pistols engraved is a Borchardt. It is a wonder that Mr. Norton did not have the big Luger engraved, as to him it was just another pistol.

Navy · 11-11-2002, 10:24 PM

I am sadened to learn of Pat Redmond's death.

RIP
Tom A

11-10-2002, 03:21 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Only Two (2) .45 Luger Pistols...? Have been mulling over the 2 previous threads (from the August time frame) about how many .45 pistols DWM might have made. It seemed that many folks will argue that only two (2) are authenticated. My question was still to try to figure out how many DWM and GL actually made. (And no, I am not talking about the recently surfaced .45 carbine...) Here is an e-mail I sent to a friend that I would like to post for others opinions and comments : " Do you think it likely that DWM made only 2 pistols and then let George hop on a boat, sail to America , and risk the ship going down with all .45 pistols ever made ? I do not think the GermanÃ¢??s would have been that silly. And do not forget, August Weiss is documented saying that there were Ã¢??no more than six (6) .45 pistols madeÃ¢?Â. " Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-10-2002, 05:19 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	We'll never know [img]wink.gif[/img] That said, <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> I am as curious as George in knowing the details, that unless we come across a manifest, we won't ever know. If I was private Eye, I'd find out what ship he came on and see if it was on the manifest. But then, I imagine he would have carried them in his personal luggage, so unless there are notes from observers, we just have so little to go on. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-10-2002, 05:46 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, I think it is pretty well accepted that there were at least three of the .45 Lugers. Two were sent to Springfield and this is documented by surviving records, ane the third is the one that surfaced in the 1960 time frame. The third .45 is thought by some to be the backup to the two that were sent to Springfield. Remember that anything that came to the U.S. from Europe had to come by boat and no more would have been given to putting it on a boat than we would think of putting something on UPS or FEDX. Also, if I remember correctly Georg Luger delivered and demostrated the .45 Luger himself.

11-10-2002, 07:44 PM	#4
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As these were NOT a production run, but hand made in the "tool room" the bare minimum seems likely. The number 3 -- two brought over for testing and a backup at home -- seems plausible. Six sounds like more than needed, although some extra parts (frames?) could have been made and why Herr Weiss said "no more than six." Just guessing...

11-11-2002, 10:28 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Johnny, Of course you are correct, one pistol was thought to have been destroyed after the 1907 US Trials, so we presently have two other pistols "authenticated" and ownership known... Does anyone know the details of how and where the .45 pistol uncovered in 1960 came from ? (I believe this 1960 find is the "Norton" gun.) If this 3rd. gun stayed back in Germany, is there any documentation on how it got over to the USA and how Harry Jones came by it ? Just interested in more of the history... Finally, is there any info. out there about that gun # 5, that number keeps popping up from time to time. Any folks on the Forum seen this # 5 or have friends that have ? I have contacted Mr.Michael Reese II about this, but did not receive a reply... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-11-2002, 02:11 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, I have posted this earlier on the forum, but the story as related by the late Pat Redmond begins with the pistol being offered to Carl Wilson (who owned the Baby featured in Shooting Times) for either $4000 or $5000 (my memory slips me here). The pistol supposedly came out of Canada, and when Mr. Wilson met the owner at the airport to finalize the deal, the pistol had gone up $1000. On principal, Mr. Wilson turned the pistol down as he thought the price had been agreed upon between the buyer and the seller. Harry Jones then bought the pistol and sold it to Mr. Norton of Shreveport, Louisiana for a reported $10,000. Carl Wilson later admitted that turning down the .45 Luger was one of the worse decisions of his Luger collecting career. The Norton .45 Luger is on public display at the Norton Gallery, and if you are ever in the vicinity of Shreveport you should make the trip to see the impressive pistol. There is absolutely no doubt as to it's authenticity. In Shreveport there was a wrestler turned engraver by the name of Prudhomme. Mr. Norton admired his work and had several of his pistols engraved by Mr. Prudhomme. One of the pistols engraved is a Borchardt. It is a wonder that Mr. Norton did not have the big Luger engraved, as to him it was just another pistol.

11-11-2002, 10:24 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I am sadened to learn of Pat Redmond's death. RIP Tom A