Takedown Lever Puzzle

Jerry Harris · 06-10-2002, 04:57 PM

One of the most unusual Lugers of any era is Georg Luger's personal 1904-05 model, a short-barreled special with cut down frame and custom 7-shot magazine. Both Michael Reese's "Luger Tips" and Charles Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" contain photos of the pistol, No. 10077B.

I noticed that the two books seem to show 10077B with different takedown levers. In Kenyon the lever is heavily chamfered and carries what looks like a stamp of some kind. In Reese the lever is sharp-edged and unmarked. Whatever the explanation for the anomaly may be, it would be of interest to collectors when such a historically significant gun is involved.

Moderator Note: The following photo was enhanced to better show the chamfering (beveling around the edge) of the checkering on the takedown lever and submitted by user ViggoG-

Herb · 06-10-2002, 05:44 PM

Jerry, the picture on the left is the correct one, it has a standard take down lever. Check your e-mail.

Hugh · 06-10-2002, 05:54 PM

Jerry,

In Kenyon's other book, LUGER: THE MULTINATIONAL PISTOL is a further unexplained anomaly. On page 58 is a description of this pistol, with small b&w pictures of the left side and top, probably same ones as in his other book, as you can see the beveled edges and the small "mark".
On page 59 is a full page color photo of this gun (which is now in Ralph Shattuck's collection; I actually held this gun in my sweaty palms during the two "Forum Conventions"). In this picture the lever has sharp edges and no marks. [img]confused.gif[/img]

It would be enlightening if Ralph would examine his pistol and post which takedown lever is on it. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Herb · 06-10-2002, 06:22 PM

Jerry/Hugh here is picture that I took of Georg's pistol while at Ralph's on 9 March this year.

Ron Wood · 06-10-2002, 07:21 PM

Jerry and Hugh
Your sharp eyes have uncovered yet another enigma! Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" photo dates from around 1969 when the first printing occurred. Reeses book dates from 1976, and Kenyon's "Luger: The Multi-National Pistol" was published in 1991. In this 1991 publication, there are two seven-shot Lugers, George Luger's on pages 58-59 and a Bulgarian crested example on pages 60-61. The picture of the Luger in "Lugers at Random" and the Bulgarian have the chamfered takedown lever. Reeses photo of George Luger's gun an the one in "The Multi-National Pistol" have the flat takedown lever. Hugh's photo agrees with the latter examples. The earliest photo was taken prior to 1969 while the gun was still in the Sid Aberman collection. The latest photo and Hugh's photo are taken from Ralph's collection. Who knows what hands the gun passed through or what transpired between those two times? Interestingly enough, there are at least 4 seven-shot examples in existence, and two of those are in the 55000 serial number range, dating them to around 1912 production!

Pete Ebbink · 06-10-2002, 08:09 PM

Based on my readings in R. Gibson's "The Krieghoff Parabellum" on page 40; the straight edged knob on the locking bolt (i.e. take down lever) is typically a Krieighoff characteristic...is it not ???

The other luger manufacturers (DWM, Mauser, Simson) apparently used chamfered or stepped edges on the knob... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Herb · 06-10-2002, 08:10 PM

Ron, your memory and your ability to relocate the info in your references is amazing. This is perhaps an excellent example of what I am trying to relate in my postings to the 'Boosting' topic. Is this an example of 'boosting' or just errors in the documentation of a piece by observers that may have not taken adequate notes?

Jerry Harris · 06-10-2002, 11:03 PM

Reply to John Sabato:
John, in my copy of Reese, the photo is very poorly printed, and the knurled head of the lever is literally lost in black ink! As I think you gleaned from the other posts, my comments were strictly about the "shank" of the lever, and that can, I believe, be seen clearly enough to distinguish it from the Kenyon picture. If I could, though, I'd be glad to put up a better scan.

Perhaps I should add for clarity that both authors specifically call out the gun as 10077B.

Thanks Jerry, I deleted my own comment on your photo after editing the first post with a slightly clearer photo as submitted by ViggoG - //John Sabato

Jerry Harris · 06-10-2002, 11:34 PM

To Ron and Herb:
I have the 1990 reformatted edition of "Lugers at Random," but Ron's information appears correct because Kenyon credits Mr. Aberman for the photo while saying the gun is (now) in Ralph's collection.

Herb's photo shows pretty clearly that the current lever is the plain unchamfered (Reese) version.

Thanks to everyone, so far, for adding HELPFUL information and sticking to OBSERVABLE facts on this little mystery!

Thor · 06-10-2002, 11:42 PM

This is the one I took a few years back

06-10-2002, 04:57 PM	#1
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Takedown Lever Puzzle One of the most unusual Lugers of any era is Georg Luger's personal 1904-05 model, a short-barreled special with cut down frame and custom 7-shot magazine. Both Michael Reese's "Luger Tips" and Charles Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" contain photos of the pistol, No. 10077B. I noticed that the two books seem to show 10077B with different takedown levers. In Kenyon the lever is heavily chamfered and carries what looks like a stamp of some kind. In Reese the lever is sharp-edged and unmarked. Whatever the explanation for the anomaly may be, it would be of interest to collectors when such a historically significant gun is involved. Moderator Note: The following photo was enhanced to better show the chamfering (beveling around the edge) of the checkering on the takedown lever and submitted by user ViggoG-

06-10-2002, 05:44 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jerry, the picture on the left is the correct one, it has a standard take down lever. Check your e-mail. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-10-2002, 05:54 PM	#3
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Jerry, In Kenyon's other book, LUGER: THE MULTINATIONAL PISTOL is a further unexplained anomaly. On page 58 is a description of this pistol, with small b&w pictures of the left side and top, probably same ones as in his other book, as you can see the beveled edges and the small "mark". On page 59 is a full page color photo of this gun (which is now in Ralph Shattuck's collection; I actually held this gun in my sweaty palms during the two "Forum Conventions"). In this picture the lever has sharp edges and no marks. [img]confused.gif[/img] It would be enlightening if Ralph would examine his pistol and post which takedown lever is on it. [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-10-2002, 06:22 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jerry/Hugh here is picture that I took of Georg's pistol while at Ralph's on 9 March this year. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-10-2002, 07:21 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Jerry and Hugh Your sharp eyes have uncovered yet another enigma! Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" photo dates from around 1969 when the first printing occurred. Reeses book dates from 1976, and Kenyon's "Luger: The Multi-National Pistol" was published in 1991. In this 1991 publication, there are two seven-shot Lugers, George Luger's on pages 58-59 and a Bulgarian crested example on pages 60-61. The picture of the Luger in "Lugers at Random" and the Bulgarian have the chamfered takedown lever. Reeses photo of George Luger's gun an the one in "The Multi-National Pistol" have the flat takedown lever. Hugh's photo agrees with the latter examples. The earliest photo was taken prior to 1969 while the gun was still in the Sid Aberman collection. The latest photo and Hugh's photo are taken from Ralph's collection. Who knows what hands the gun passed through or what transpired between those two times? Interestingly enough, there are at least 4 seven-shot examples in existence, and two of those are in the 55000 serial number range, dating them to around 1912 production! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-10-2002, 08:09 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Based on my readings in R. Gibson's "The Krieghoff Parabellum" on page 40; the straight edged knob on the locking bolt (i.e. take down lever) is typically a Krieighoff characteristic...is it not ??? The other luger manufacturers (DWM, Mauser, Simson) apparently used chamfered or stepped edges on the knob... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

06-10-2002, 08:10 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, your memory and your ability to relocate the info in your references is amazing. This is perhaps an excellent example of what I am trying to relate in my postings to the 'Boosting' topic. Is this an example of 'boosting' or just errors in the documentation of a piece by observers that may have not taken adequate notes? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-10-2002, 11:03 PM	#8
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reply to John Sabato: John, in my copy of Reese, the photo is very poorly printed, and the knurled head of the lever is literally lost in black ink! As I think you gleaned from the other posts, my comments were strictly about the "shank" of the lever, and that can, I believe, be seen clearly enough to distinguish it from the Kenyon picture. If I could, though, I'd be glad to put up a better scan. Perhaps I should add for clarity that both authors specifically call out the gun as 10077B. *Thanks Jerry, I deleted my own comment on your photo after editing the first post with a slightly clearer photo as submitted by ViggoG - //John Sabato*

06-10-2002, 11:34 PM	#9
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Ron and Herb: I have the 1990 reformatted edition of "Lugers at Random," but Ron's information appears correct because Kenyon credits Mr. Aberman for the photo while saying the gun is (now) in Ralph's collection. Herb's photo shows pretty clearly that the current lever is the plain unchamfered (Reese) version. Thanks to everyone, so far, for adding HELPFUL information and sticking to OBSERVABLE facts on this little mystery!

06-10-2002, 11:42 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	This is the one I took a few years back <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."