1902 American Eagle "Fat Barrel" Luger

[Tony S.]

While doing some research, I understood that the U.S. Army bought 50 7.65mm 1902's which were later replaced by 50 9mm Cartridge Counter Lugers brought in personally by Georg Luger. Now, where these guns marked diferently? Were they marked here in the US as well and How? Where there other American Eagles "Fat Barrel" purchased that were not Cartridge Counter? According to some information that I found and gun?, the U.S. Government purchased 3 'Commercially-sold' 1902 AE Lugers 4" Fat Barrel. How can I find the serial numbers of these Lugers, if the above statement is correct? I will post some pics of the gun in question in the near future.
Thanks, Tony
"SEMPER PARATUS"

[Edward Tinker]

I believe that of the 1,000 test 7.65's that 50 were "swapped" out with 50 9mms.

Post pictures as soon as you can, then we can "talk" about it, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

[Tony S.]

The U.S. test trials in 1901 used 1,000 7.65mm 4 3/4" barrel. In 1902-03, another order of 50 Lugers was placed for the 7.65mm 4" barrel Cartridge Counter Luger, which was subsequently swapped for the 9mm caliber Cartridge Counter Luger (50). My previous questions still standing. I figure that we can speculate now and show pictures later. Actually, I don't have access to my digital camera at this time. I will post pics over the weekend when I get home. But, I will appreciate if you can answer some of these questions.
Thanks, Tony

[Edward Tinker]

If you buy the book by Reese (sp), it tells assorted information in detail. {{hopefully others can help us??}}

although it sounds like you have the answer and are looking for confirmation?

The "true" cartridge counter guns are worth a pretty penny, and I don't believe that many exist still. I am out of town, so do not have access to my books.
Hopefully someone has the info you are looking for? Although it would be benificial if you provided further information on what you have?

Ed

[Ron Wood]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> In 1902-03, another order of 50 Lugers was placed for the 7.65mm 4" barrel Cartridge Counter Luger, which was subsequently swapped for the 9mm caliber Cartridge Counter Luger (50). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">To the best of my knowledge, there never were any 7.65mm Cartridge Counter Lugers. From resources that I have read, 50 of the original 1000 7.65mm purchase were to be traded for the 50 9mm Cartridge Counter weapons.

Fifty 9mm Lugers were ordered for testing. The grips and magazines were a design of Lt. Powell of US Army Ordnance (technically known as the "Powell Indicating Device"). There was a delay in shipment of the 9mm Cartridge Counters as DWM claimed there was some delay in adapting the special grips.

What reference are you quoting that states that there were 7.65mm Cartridge Counter weapons ordered?

[Tony S.]

I only have one book accesible to me (out of town), which is Luger Tips by Michael Reese II. The gun in question is not a cartridge counter but a 1902 AE Fat Barrel with "US" markings inside the frame and other places.
Thanks, Tony

[Ron Wood]

I understand the situation. I am out of town too and have no access to my references. When we get back home, I will look at Reese's book and perhaps you can find the reference for the 7.65mm Cartridge Counters.
Thanks, Ron

[Lugerdoc]

Tony, If what you are calling "US marking" is the semi=circle atop a circle inside the front TD lever well, most experts believe this to be a DWM inspector's mark, as it is present in most M1900 & O2 lugers. TH

[Vlim]

Hi,

John Walter in 'The Luger Story'writes that a US-made cartrigde counter prototype was sent to Germany. He does not know whether the prototype was based on a B-series 9mm or a 7.65 trails gun.

In the time between the 7.65 mm trails and the 9mm cartrigde counter exchange another set of 9mm guns was brought into the US:

These were a couple of 9mm B-series prototypes with 3 7/8, 4 11/16 and 5 13/16 inch barrels. Some were numbered 10030B and 10060B.

[Tony S.]

Here are some pics of the Luger in question. <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/closeup_barrel.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/closeup_barrel.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/closseup_frame.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/closseup_frame.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/box_copy2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/box_copy2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/left_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/left_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

A couple of things noted:
1. No commercial proof marks
2. "US" markings
3. 3 semi-drilled holes on receiver lug?
4. Small proof mark forward of the receiver lug
I have some other pics if interested. This gun, together with 1900 AE #6850 and 1902 AE CC #22424 (U. S. Government Trials) came from same owner who supposedly bought them from the Springfield Armory.

Thanks, Tony

[Tony S.]

I am surprised that no one has risen to the challenge of this particular piece. Between all of the great knowledge filled brains out there, is there not anyone that can provide a glimmer of insight here? Well, take my lines lightly, I was curious about this item and I was hoping to tap on your knowledge!
Thanks, Tony

[Edward Tinker]

Give 'em time Tony, I think the they are still turkey stuffed

I too am curious and will await those glimmers of insight,

[Lugerdoc]

Tony, In looking at the serial on the barrel (22760) the "760" appear to be different dies than the "22". Even if this serialization were correct, it is not in the recognized Cartridge Counter range of 22401 to 22450, rather in the commercial AE Fat Barrel 02 range. It's hard to tell from your photo, if this is actually an original fat barrel. TH

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Tony,

Would you please provide the serial number of the Fat Barrel Luger to determine if it was produced in the first or second lot of commercial Fat Barrel Lugers. By reason of the fact that these Lugers fall in a serial range before the Cartridge Counters, there could be a slim chance that Springfield Arsenal could have examined a commercial Fat Barrel destined to the US Market before it actually requested for the Cartridge Counters. This is only a 'wild guess' because there is no data to prove this possibility.

I cannot determine the reason for the three holes drilled in the lug, but my guess for the 'US S' marking means 'US Springfield' even though I have not observed this type of marking before. Obviously, it was not applied at the DWM factory which would have been unconventional.

Just as a side note, you might be interested to learn that two of the Cartridge Counters which were delivered to Springfield Arsenal had their grips removed and the Powell indicator added to two 1905 Colt pistols. Therefore, there are only 48 known Cartridge Counters known to exist!

I continue to research this area and give you an update soon.

Cheers,
Albert

[Tony S.]

Yes, it is an original Fat Barrel, a commercial AE Fat Barrel without commercial proof marks. I will try to post a picture of the entire gun. I just don't know how to post it without going over 200KB. The serial number of this gun is 22760.
Thanks, Tony

[Ron Wood]

Tony,
I think that no one has risen to the challenge because they havenâ??t any answers. I know that is my situation.

There is no provenance for this Luger or documentation to which to refer. It is interesting that it was purchased as a lot with two valid test pieces. That adds a tenuous link to Springfield Armory ownership and possible testing; therefore I would highly encourage that the circumstances surrounding its purchase be documented to provide a reference in the future to preclude this linkage from being lost.

However, that in itself does not validate this Luger as a US test item. Albertâ??s hypothesis that the â??US Sâ?� markings could stand for â??US Springfieldâ?� is a possibility, but it does seem an odd and crude way to mark the piece. Also in the odd and crude category are the three holes in the recoil lug. I might as well go out on a limb with a WAG and suggest that it was an attempt to lighten the barrel/receiver group to improve the loading and ejection functions during firing. That is an imprecise sledgehammer approach to the problem, but then again the Luger action, and in particular the 9mm cartridge, were new concepts back then so a ham-handed tinkerer at the Armory (or in Bubbaâ??s basement) may have thought it was a good idea.

Gerben van Vlimmeren has already pointed out that the only documented 9mm pieces tested by the Army outside of the Cartridge Counter series were part of the 5 Lugers personally presented by Georg Luger to the Ordnance Board at Springfield Armory on 21 May 1903. Two of the 5 Lugers were in 7.65mm and three were 9mm. The 9mm Lugers were in three different barrel lengths 3 7/8â?� (10cm), 4 11/16â?� (12cm) and 5 13/16â?� (15cm). According to Walter (â??The Luger Storyâ?�), â??Two of these have been identified as 10030B and 10060B, with a special 12cm barrel and a standard 15cm barrel respectively.â?� That leaves the 10cm barrel example unidentified. However, in looking at the photographs above it appears that this Luger has the serial number 22700 [While I was composing this post, Tony provided the serial number - Thanks]. That would date the production of this piece after the Cartridge Counters. Therefore it is not the â??missingâ?� example from 1903. It seems odd that it would have been purchased for testing when the Cartridge Counter versions may have already been in hand, but it is remotely possible since delivery of the 50 Lugers with the G.H. Powell Cartridge Indicating Device was delayed. According to the test report recorded by CPT William A. Phillips, Springfield Armory, Experimental Department, â??These pistols were made in Germany and some delay was caused by the firm having to do the work of putting on the Powell device by hand.â?� It should also be noted that the testing of the 9mm cartridge vs the 7.65mm cartridge was conducted in November of 1903, fully 5 months before the Cartridge Counter examples were delivered. Most likely the testing was performed using one of the three weapons delivered by Georg Luger earlier that year, but with a great leap of fantasy it might be posited that Georg took the three guns back with him and this piece was purchased subsequently for the November test.

The bottom line is that there is no documented evidence (that I am aware of) to validate the ownership and testing of this Luger by Springfield Armory. Any speculation regarding its origins and use may only be conjectured from its reported purchase from the Armory and the odd markings. I am afraid that it will remain one of those wonderful enigmatic Lugers that give us something to talk about.

Good catch by Albert regarding the removal of the Powell device from two Lugers to be fitted to .45 Colts. It seems it would have made more sense to fabricate two new devices since they are rather fragile and the Luger device had to be shortened from 8 cartridges down to 7 for the Colt, but thatâ??s what they did. I would be willing to bet that if the two Lugers that had the grips removed still exist, they now have Powell grips installed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Thanks Tony for a fun topic. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Tony,

If you have a file that is over 200K you can trim it down somewhat by cropping the image to just the essential things you want to show... that will help.

An alternative...If you still have a problem, you can always register and open a new Member Gallery album and upload the photo there.

There is no filesize limitation for those photo uploads... then you can capture the URL for the photo you want to use in a message post and display it that way.