Norton .45 Luger Question...

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2002, 02:06 AM

Still trying to understand the string of info. regarding the number of .45 lugers (pistol syle only, and not the carbine) :

1. Michael Reese states he has held/seen both serial # 2 and # 5.

2. In my 1975 edition of the H. Jones, book, luger Variations, there is that nice color photo of the Norton Gallery luger. Harry Jones' caption below this photo reads as "...GL monogrammed and has no serial number...". Since this gun was fired ~ 150 round by Mr. Normal Lee and Mr. and Mrs. Harry Jones, I would think they would be pretty sure if it had a serial number or not...

3. On 6-24-02 in the "1945" thread started by "Klaus", Mike Jones replies to Jan Still with a listing of reported .45 pistols and then states the following : "...#5 = Pictured in Luger of the month in G&A by Michael Reese Feb. 1974. Is the Norton Gun. ". Elsewhere in Mikes reply, it is stated that the Norton gun is un-numbered.

Sorry if I keep bugging you guys with the question, but I am still a bit unclear as to what the Norton gun is...

Is the Norton .45 luger an "un-numbered" gun or is it gun # 5 ? If not # 5, how did it start being assigned this # 5 designation. Was Mike Reese wrong, or did he see a # 5 .45 luger ?

Does anyone know how to reach M. Reese ?

Thanks for your help... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

John Sabato · 08-21-2002, 11:00 AM

Pete,

The Norton gun is unnumbered. It does, however, have a magazine that is number #3. This was confirmed to me many months ago by direct communication with the museum curator.

Johnny Peppers · 08-21-2002, 11:55 AM

If you look in Scott Meadow's book "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols", the Norton pistol is shown in the book as serial number 3. I have known Scott for many years but never questioned him as to why he indicated the pistol was serial numbered, but I would guess that this was from information furnished by the staff of Norton Gallery as Scott was not allowed to examine the pistol. Possibly the same mis-information was furnished to Michael Reese at an earlier date, but I would think this would be information known only to Michael Reese. I believe Joe Schroeder appraised the Norton pistol for the gallery, and have heard that he had permission to photograph the pistol but never did.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I don't believe the Norton Gallery had any idea of the significance of the .45 Luger in the firearm collection, and knew virtually nothing of it's markings. At one time there were lesser firearms there that were displayed much better. The last time I was at the Norton Gallery, which has been several years back, the firearms collection was relegated to a small ill lighted room while the emphasis is on the collection of Remington and Russell paintings and bronzes.

Pete Ebbink · 08-26-2002, 07:56 PM

I noticed in my new copy of the 23rd. edition of the Gun Blue Book that in the section listed as .45 lugers, the comment is made that "three (3) are known to exist.

I have e-mailed the editors of the Blue Book and asked for information on a .45 luger that is not serial # 2 (Aberman gun) or the Norton gun.

If/when I get a reply, I will post it here to the Forum...

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Pete Ebbink · 08-29-2002, 02:27 PM

Good Morning, All;

I spoke on the phone, today, with Mr. John Allen at the BlueBook,Inc. outfit regarding their statement that three (3) .45 luger pistols (i.e. not carbine...) are known to exist.

John stated that they stand by their statement that 3 are known to exist, but was not able to provide owner and/or serial number information; per the Owner's request.

John can be reached at 1-800-877-4867 for those wanting to ask for themselves...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-21-2002, 02:06 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Norton .45 Luger Question... Still trying to understand the string of info. regarding the number of .45 lugers (pistol syle only, and not the carbine) : 1. Michael Reese states he has held/seen both serial # 2 and # 5. 2. In my 1975 edition of the H. Jones, book, luger Variations, there is that nice color photo of the Norton Gallery luger. Harry Jones' caption below this photo reads as "...GL monogrammed and has no serial number...". Since this gun was fired ~ 150 round by Mr. Normal Lee and Mr. and Mrs. Harry Jones, I would think they would be pretty sure if it had a serial number or not... 3. On 6-24-02 in the "1945" thread started by "Klaus", Mike Jones replies to Jan Still with a listing of reported .45 pistols and then states the following : "...#5 = Pictured in Luger of the month in G&A by Michael Reese Feb. 1974. Is the Norton Gun. ". Elsewhere in Mikes reply, it is stated that the Norton gun is un-numbered. Sorry if I keep bugging you guys with the question, but I am still a bit unclear as to what the Norton gun is... Is the Norton .45 luger an "un-numbered" gun or is it gun # 5 ? If not # 5, how did it start being assigned this # 5 designation. Was Mike Reese wrong, or did he see a # 5 .45 luger ? Does anyone know how to reach M. Reese ? Thanks for your help... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-21-2002, 11:00 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Pete, The Norton gun is unnumbered. It does, however, have a magazine that is number #3. This was confirmed to me many months ago by direct communication with the museum curator. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2002, 11:55 AM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	If you look in Scott Meadow's book "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols", the Norton pistol is shown in the book as serial number 3. I have known Scott for many years but never questioned him as to why he indicated the pistol was serial numbered, but I would guess that this was from information furnished by the staff of Norton Gallery as Scott was not allowed to examine the pistol. Possibly the same mis-information was furnished to Michael Reese at an earlier date, but I would think this would be information known only to Michael Reese. I believe Joe Schroeder appraised the Norton pistol for the gallery, and have heard that he had permission to photograph the pistol but never did. This is pure speculation on my part, but I don't believe the Norton Gallery had any idea of the significance of the .45 Luger in the firearm collection, and knew virtually nothing of it's markings. At one time there were lesser firearms there that were displayed much better. The last time I was at the Norton Gallery, which has been several years back, the firearms collection was relegated to a small ill lighted room while the emphasis is on the collection of Remington and Russell paintings and bronzes.

08-26-2002, 07:56 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I noticed in my new copy of the 23rd. edition of the Gun Blue Book that in the section listed as .45 lugers, the comment is made that "three (3) are known to exist. I have e-mailed the editors of the Blue Book and asked for information on a .45 luger that is not serial # 2 (Aberman gun) or the Norton gun. If/when I get a reply, I will post it here to the Forum... Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-29-2002, 02:27 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Good Morning, All; I spoke on the phone, today, with Mr. John Allen at the BlueBook,Inc. outfit regarding their statement that three (3) .45 luger pistols (i.e. not carbine...) are known to exist. John stated that they stand by their statement that 3 are known to exist, but was not able to provide owner and/or serial number information; per the Owner's request. John can be reached at 1-800-877-4867 for those wanting to ask for themselves... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />