One of Two Hundred?

[wterrell]

Anyone on the forum offering this pistol? Is the information correct that the seller declares about this pistol?

[quote]Of the original 1000 .30 cal lugers issued to the US Army in 1902, fewer than 200 are recorded today. This is one of them, serial number 6857, and it is all matching throughout including the grips. When the Army withdrew the pistols from the test, most were sold to Bannerman's. That company repaired some before sale. This pistol was reblued a long time ago so it would seem that it might be one reblued by Bannerman in the 1920's. With the exception of some pitting on the right toggle grip, this pistol has no defects. The bore is worn (about 60%) as might be expected, but is still clean with no rust or pitting. <hr></blockquote>

LINK:

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=4867224

[Doubs]

Wes, in "Imperial Lugers" Jan Still reports that 770 1900 U.S. Test Lugers were sold to Bannerman who then retailed them to the public. I'm a little leery of the claim that only 200 are "recorded" today. What is the source of the number 200? While it's possible that the whereabouts of only 200 are known, I believe that a much larger number of them have survived. That's ONLY my opinion but surely 570 of those sold to Bannerman haven't been lost or destroyed. That's much too high a percentage in my estimate.

[wterrell]

Doubs, do you suspect that keoki7 is a regular poster to our forum?

[Johnny Peppers]

Just my take on it, but the seller is indicating that there has been only 200 of the surviving Test Lugers recorded. In Scott Meadows book, "U.S. MILITARY AUTOMATIC PISTOLS" he has only 144 recorded serial numbers, and strangely enough his last serial number is 7403. I don't think anyone is trying to leave the impression that only 200 of the original pistols sold to Bannermans are all that still exist; just that only that number has been observed. I believe when Michael Reese published his book on the Test Trials Lugers, he had recorded only 90 or so of the pistols.
One of the problems associated with the Test Lugers is that there is no firm proof of where the series started and ended. In the Michael Reese book he indicates that information from the Bureau of Accounting puts the serial number range from 6099 to 7098, but serial number 7147 shows up in the pistols sold to Bannermans. Also, pistols below serial number 6099 have the proper characteristics of the Test Lugers; namely no GERMANY stamp, no proofs, and the takedown lever numbered on the round right end.
The serial numbers of the pistols sold to Bannermans were 6167 thru 6196, 6282, 6361 thru 7108, and 7147. It seems strange that a block of consecutively numbered pistols totaling 748 weapons would have survived intact. Maybe the pistols were issued and recorded to an individual soldier, and he had better have a very good excuse for not turning the pistol back in. This block also contains 10 pistols above the serial number indicated by the Bureau of Accounting. Unless never before seen records are found in the National Archives, we may never know the actual serial numbers of some of the Test Lugers.
By the way, if anyone has their old AutoMags indexed, serial number 7403 is recorded as having been in the 12/87 issue on page 179. Might be interesting to see what was said about this way out of range pistol.

[Edward Tinker]

LIke everything else, I wonder how many get destroyed each year over the years, the gun buffed so bad, nothing remains, or a fire or total water damage...

But it is amazing that so many would be "gone" and like Johnnny said, when you can trace a gun back 7 years, that is interesting. I would love to start a serial number registry and see how many we could gather. Are there lists now out there? I know a couple of collectors have gathered lists over time?

Then how many are sitting in a drawer and has this nice american eagle on it.

I wonder how many american eagles are on the forum that aren't in those registered numbers? One, two maybe, more?

[Ron Wood]

For almost 24 years now I have been tracking serial numbers of the US Test Lugers. I have presented a list of the serial numbers in AUTOMAG, the newsletter of the Automatic Pistol Collectors Association (NAPCA). Since my last list, I have acquired Scott Meadows book and received serial numbers from several individuals. As a result, I currently have recorded 265 serial numbers of reported or observed 1900 US Test Lugers. This includes 234 Lugers in the "accepted" range of approximately 6100 to 7100, four "below the range" serial numbers, and 27 "above the range". The lowest serial number is 6068 (Scott Meadows reports 6009, but that is so far out of range that I reserve judgment until further information is available). The highest number reported is 7823. All of these weapons have, as Johnny Peppers has noted, "the proper characteristics of the Test Lugers; namely no GERMANY stamp, no proofs, and the takedown lever numbered on the round right end", except that around serial number 7138 the last two digits of the serial number appears on the flat of the left side of the takedown lever.

This extended range of serial numbers might suggest that the 1000 US Test Luger serial number range may not be contiguous and that the accepted range of 6100 to 7100 might need to be reviewed.

I have no idea where the remainder of the 781 Lugers sold to Bannerman have gone, all I know is the serial numbers that have been reported.

By the way, look at the small part serial numbers on the Luger that started this thread. They are numbered "87". The numbers have been transposed in the description of the Luger. The serial number probably is actually 6587 rather than 6857.

[George Anderson]

Ron Wood is right the serial number was transposed, it should read 6587. I am Keoki7 and the figure of 200 comes from Ron's recent posting in AUTOMAG plus 5 more that I gave him over the phone; three in my possession, one in Florida and one in Nebraska. To avoid controversy, my figure of 200 does not include those pistols outside "the range" that Ron includes in his contribution to AUTOMAG.

The additional numbers I gave Ron were 6211, 6280, 6287, 6587, 6589. The last two are those I am selling and the first is one I recently sold.

[Lugerdoc]

Ron, In looking at the serials on the trigger, I wonder about the 7 not being alined proper with the 8 and what may be file marks. Regarding the overall US test range, I've always believed that of any range of 1000, one could expect some rejects, perhaps 10%, that would probably be replaced later with 100 guns in a higher range. Tom H.

[Edward Tinker]

George thanks for researching and Ron, what a great list. Those guns interest me, must be that little eagle on there!

This was good information, thanks guys!

[wterrell]

...with George's permission?

What is the wet looking area on the grip to the right?

[George Anderson]

Wes, I think I posted this gun for sale the same night that I got into some domestic Scotch. I transposed the serial number and neglected to wipe off some oil or whatever from the inside of the grip. It is not glue but rather some sort of oil residue.

[Ron Wood]

Tom
The cockeyed numbers on the side plate, recoil lug and trigger don't bother me too much. It is interesting to note that these three numbers are virtually identical in their mis-alignment. At a guess I would suspect that the number dies were hand set in a jig for stamping and the operator didn't notice it at first. The numbers on the takedown lever and grip safety look OK so I guess he sobered up by the time he got to those. I would be more concerned if only the sideplate and trigger showed this anomoly, but since the recoil lug is the same way, it is unlikely that all three were replaced and only the barrel and frame retained. I am at a loss to explain the striations (file marks?) on the frame behind the trigger. I'll let someone else exercise their imagination for that, I've exhausted my "guess quota".
In AUTOMAG I once postulated that the "above the range" serials might have been replacements for test pieces lost or damaged beyond repair during the field trials. I was politely shot down by responses that there were no other contracts in which replacement was known to take place. So I think I will just stick with the conjecture that the contract serials may not have been contiguous and that the range may be a bit wider than previously thought. 10% failure and replacement does seem a bit high to me, but who knows?

[Doubs]

Ron, you are not the only one who theorizes that the higher serial numbers that fall outside the accepted range may be the result of replacement pistols. Jan Still mentions that possibility in "Imperial Lugers". I believe that it is as valid as any other theory and, as an opinion, holds as much water as the opinions of those members of NAPCA who disagree. Service on the frontier for the cavalry was rough. Damaging a pistol beyond repair or continuing use must have happened on occasion. I'm sure Hans Tauscher and DWM would have been anxious to ensure swift replacement of any damaged Lugers. It makes sense... to me, anyway.

[Johnny Peppers]

The pistols were issued to the field in November of 1901, and recalled from the field starting in 1906 with all being turned in by 1907. The very slight difference in the serial number range of the out of range pistols does not seem to bear out the theory that as the pistols were damaged or destroyed they were replaced with new pistols. Unless confirming evidence is located, we will probably never know the exact serial numbers of all the test pistols, either high or low.

[Doubs]

We do know that 1,000 pistols were issued and that Bannerman purchased only 770... supposedly the entire remaining inventory. That means that 230 were lost, stolen, destroyed or somehow not among those turned in. Having had experience with the military forces of other nations, isn't it possible that Hans Tauscher and DWM may have anticipated losses and had a few extra guns sent to replace damaged guns? It would seem to have been a prudent move considering the distance barrier between the US and Germany. It's a pretty good bet that a stock of spare parts and a skilled workman or two were available to Tauscher so why not a few extra pistols for quick replacement of guns that couldn't be repaired? Once the extra guns were gone, normal attrition set in.

Yes, this is all theory and guess work without proof positive. But, until someone has that proof or a better idea it's still the best bet going. IMO, of course.

[Johnny Peppers]

Maintenance of the pistols was performed at Springfield Armory and Rock Island Arsenal with records provided by Scott Meadows of the number repaired each year, so apparently the US did not look to DWM or Hans Tauscher for maintenance of the pistols. It would be correct to assume that the contract also included spare parts for maintenance of the weapons.
780 of the test pistols were sold at public auction with Bannerman being the high bidder. This in no way indicated that only 780 of the original 1000 were all that still existed. Records indicate that the remaining pistols were repaired if necessary and were either retained for reference or sold to officers or other influential people. None of the Model 1902 Test Pistols were sold at auction, which again indicates they were not selling all the test pistols pistols on hand.

[Edward Tinker]

There is also a section in Datig's book, revised section, 1962 publishing, page 239, that discusses a private sale of a test Luger, Serial # 10030 B, authorized by the Sec of War from June 3rd 1910 and purchased Nov 7 1913 from Springfield Armory. The magazine wasn't correct and they sent several letters back and forth and got the problem corrected.

So obviously a handful or more were sold this way. I imagine some are in gov't museums also?

[Johnny Peppers]

Edward,
I believe the 10030B pistol was shipped with one of the Model 1902 Cartridge Counter magazines, which wouldn't work in the standard frame Model 1900. The Cartridge Counter magazines had a bright disk in the ends of the base, like the Swiss magazines, to indicate a different type magazine.

[Edward Tinker]

I was going off of memeory when I first wrote it, then got the book out and added the serial number and extra information. That would explain why the magazines wouldn't work and they requested a new one.
Will re-read that section, now that I am thinking more of why they said the mag wouldn't work.

[img]smile.gif[/img] Ed

[John Sabato]

What a scholarly discussion... by some of the great minds on this forum. Thanks guys for all the data... AND the speculation. It made for a great read!