Ku BYF 41 Dated Luger

[John D.]

Hello Gerben,

First - excellent post.... My thanks.....

I've been thinking about your post throughout the day - and first, I will say I reject K�¼stenfliegerstaffeln (Coastal Units), K�¼stenfliegergruppen and Krieghoff (Kufstein Factory association) with the same degree of skepticism.

However - I am aware of the Hungarian Airforce, but thought they were under the same Versailles sanctions as Germany from the onset (and began rearming in secret in 1937). However, I thought their aircraft were depleted in 1941 (Operation Barbarossa) and previous to that wasn't terribly effective or active - given the small number of aircraft (which wasn't of a significant size until 1941)?

But to your point - in mid/late 1942 (I'll have to check my notes), Hungary restocked with primarily Luftwaffe equipment. As well, as you probably know (but I'm posting for those who do not) - I believe Germany set up aircraft production facilities in Hungary in late 1942 (as the final assembly point). I thought it was only the factory that was under German control, rather then the Hungarian Air Force? However - since the factories are a matter of record, your comments/theory may have quite a bit of validity - certainly enough to pursue - and frankly - is very plausible!

As well - I thought - and could be wrong - the Hungarian Air Force was not placed under German control until 1944, when they retreated back into Germany? If that's correct, then could the LA stamp been applied, or the LA stamp utilizied, as the Hungarien Air Force Acceptance (without association to the German Luftwaffe)? On the other hand, if they were under German control - it's as valid a stamp referenced as Luftwaffe.

So - some other questions are:

Did Konichlich Ungarian E.S.M. have any stamps which may be viewed "unique" on their other components produced?

Why would Konichlich Ungarian be condensed to "K�¼" rather then KU? I'm not certain which would be proper?

Excellent post.... I rarely tuck a post into the back of my mind at the beginning of the day - to consider it throughout. Yours is such a post...

My thanks!!

[John Sabato]

Just to take the edge off this facinating mystery of the Ku marking, I would like to remark that this example has one heck of a nice set of grips on it! Look at the incredible fit of those grips... Sure doesn't look like factory "seconds" to ME

[John Sabato]

Has anyone considered that the Ku might not be German at all?

http://www.heer.vbs.admin.ch/interne...ub/kuchef.html

[John D.]

Hey John..!!

Finding references to K�¼ in many areas is pretty easy THE TOUGH part is fitting Luger Production into them and the LA stamp (commonly considered associated with the Air Forces of a country - Germany, and in this case Hungary)...

But - as nothing can be verified without the correct lead - all leads should be considered!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Vlim]

Hi John D.,

In those days, the name '�¼ngaria' was written with an umlaut (just don't have the shortcut on my keyboard )

Take a look at page 284 of Ian Hogg's "German Handguns" (code jkg). That one set me off, since it was the only KU explanation in the entire book that made sense to me. It shows "Konichliche �¼ngarische ...".

Althoug I like the link John S. mentioned as well:

K�¼chenchefs

About Hungarian forces under LW control:
In 1941-42 parts of the Hungarian airforce were placed under command of the VIII (8th) luftwaffe airgroup. Also, during the same era Germany was indeed topping up Hungarian supplies and airplanes.

The more I read about it, the more I come to believe that the K�¼/Luftwaffe markings on these lugers indeed have a link with Eastern-European involvement during the 1941-1945 period.

[Vlim]

Another very interesting link.

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/yugo_serb.html

Especially this quote:

The Kragujevac works (unlike many of the other captured foreign arsenals and factories) was not a major source of supplemental weaponry for the Germans during WWII. The workers there en masse simply refused to cooperate with the Germans in any significant way, and the Germans feared deliberate sabotage of and damage to any arms and ammo made there (and the ammo made in Uzice) so much, that both the Kragujevac and Uzice works were all but idle during 1941-45.

[Ron Wood]

Gerben,
The Hungarian link is plausable, but I have a little reservation with it because the marking on the Lugers is K�¼ and not K�?, as John D has observed in his post. I would think that �?ngarische would start with an upper case letter, again as John D questioned. Do you think that distinction is significant?

[Vlim]

Hi Ron,

I found an English-Hungarian translation site and decided to feed k�¼ into it to see what it would come up with.

To my complete surprise it gave some full words starting with k�¼ that actually made some sense, giving the idea that it was a Hungarian abbreviation of some sort.

One nice translation was: kÃ?¼lszÃ?Â*n = air
And what about: k�¼lf�¶ldi = foreign

Isn't that nice?

I guess there's still a lot of digging to do regarding Eastern European WW2 marking/production/etc... but I'm hopeful. Just keep looking for a similar mark or text on other equipment.

[Roadkill]

Nice work. I have always thought that the Ku marked Lugers w/u umlaut is a pronunication, just had to find the right word and link it to Lugers. Are there any other set commonalities to these guns? This means also traits that they all do not have. Sometimes the seeing what is not present tells more that all the things that are.

rk

[Ron Wood]

May I echo the "nice work" comment. The idea of the meaning of the marking being something other than German has merit and appears to make more sense than some of the traditional interpretations. Perhaps a few other languages might be explored. I am not familiar enough with European languages to know which ones employ the umlaut.

[Vlim]

Ron, RK,

I've been translating some lengthy German texts for one of our forum members and found myself browsing quite a lot in German dictionaries as a result and although the German language has a number of k�¼ words that may fit the bill, most of them had no (logical) meaning in this situation.

But I still have to admit that the 'Hungarian' approach has some flaws. I found out that 'K�¼' is also a Hungarian family name, to complicate things even further.

What I do like about Hungary is their obvious use of k�¼ in many words, names and phrases and there still is a nice link between the luftwaffe and the Hungarian air force.

Do we have forum members with a Hungarian background?

[Edward Tinker]

Gerben, also, as you are aware, in Europe. capitilation is not always the norm?

I say that because many times I saw names or initials not always capitilized? I feel sometimes we put "american" usage on the rest of the world?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

[Vlim]

Hi Ed,

Well, it's kinda complicated. In Dutch we usually capitalize names and country names, but not dates. The Germans have changed a bit after the war, before it they used to capitalize about every noun and verb they could

But nowadays that's the general norm: Capitalize names of people, countries and places and not the rest.

Over here we're used to Americanization, especially in the computer business. The Dutch quickly discovered that it was cheaper to use US-style keyboards and English software than to use their own layouts and language on PCs. And when it's cheap, we Dutch really go for it That lack of chauvinism separates us from the rest of Europe. &lt;grin&gt;

That's why I believe that the Dutch wanted 'Rust' and double-sided "Geladen" on their Lugers just to nag the Germans

[John D.]

Excellent thread......

I need to think about all this for a while - but to all - especially Gerben - my thanks.....

I'm sure I'll have many questions - and for that - might set up a copy of this thread in a new Forum, so we can discuss it without detracting from Bob's original post - but this is a subject which I'm very interested in, as are many of you....

My thanks again!

John D.

[Vlim]

Hi John,

How about a 'Top 10 K�¼ Theories' thread? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

But seriously, any comments, addional theories, debunking, etc.. is really appreciated.

[Edward Tinker]

Gerben, start a brand new thread and we'll just put all of the "theories" in one place.

ed

[Edward Tinker]

Here are some additional close ups:

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku18.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku18.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku19.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku19.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku20.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku20.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku21.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf_41_ku21.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[RAHamilton]

Gentlemen:

I just took some additional pictures of the LA proof on the receiver, as well as, the magazine. Ed has graciously agreed to add them to this thread. While taking them, I did look closer at the extractor and it is indeed more of a bronze or golden color, rather than the traditional plum. Does anyone have any ideas of why this color variation is different? Also, thanks so much to everyone who has added their thoughts to this interesting Ku discussion. I'm learning a great deal and wanted to thank all of you personally.

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton