New “baby” for Eugen

[Eugen]

Traveling back from a business meeting in Springfield, IL yesterday I happened to stop at a small LGS along the way. I noticed an Erma Werke KGP68A in 7,65mm in the “Used Guns” section along with used Glocks, Hi-Points, etc. Cool! I have never held one of those before and only seen them in photos on this forum. Well, as soon as I held the baby I didn’t want to put it down and knew I had to buy it. Yes, I know, to no one’s surprise. LOL

It was a consigned gun and had a price of $550 on the tag. Yikes! There was no box, manual, accessories or a second mag; just a hard shell aftermarket case. The salesman (obviously not the LGS owner) knew little about it, and guns in particularly. Being an amateur collector and not a complete newbie, I returned to my car and thumbed through a new gun blue book and noticed that they showed a top price of $450. I also grabbed my bore light and went back inside to check it out and negotiate on the price. I said that I would buy it at $450. The salesman knew the owner and told me he would not sell below the $550 asking price. I was disappointed, snapped a few photos of the gun, handed the salesman my business card and left.

About two hours later after I returned home I got a phone call from the salesman and was told they would accept $450. Alright! While I know I did not get a bargain, I did get what I wanted. Well, I will get it after the mandatory 3 day IL ‘hold’ requirement and until I can schedule a return trip to the gun shop.

I now need to learn about what I just purchased. Doh?!

I need to do an online search for a manual or equivalent and find a least one more mag. So who on the forum has one of these little guys?

Any advice for Eugen?

[John Sabato]

I think Ithacaartist is one of the resident SME's on the Erma Luger Look-a-likes... If he doesn't chime in on your thread, I suggest sending him a PM.

[DonVoigt]

Nice catch, as you say- not a screaming bargain- but a good looking example.

I've been on the lookout for one also, but at a "bargain" price!

[Edward Tinker]

I only have a PDF on the Erma conversion kit...

This was a DVD I bought some years ago, it has all of these manuals on it...

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Erma68/erma68.html


http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_milit...uger_erma.html

[ithacaartist]

Eugene,

Yep, I also succumbed to the Erma bug once my immune system had been compromised by the Parabellum. I think you did on the high side of OK in your purchase, as these seem to have jumped up a bit for what they bring, compared to just a few years ago, The grip frames of these models are cast Zamak--a zinc alloy. As such, this major part is a major pain when it comes to showing wear in the finish. Fortunately, yours does not seem to have much in the typical areas on the front edges and corners, which are usually abraded to grey there.

I like the KGPs better than the early La and Ep series .22s made in the 60s. The earlier ones may have the same weight and approximate overall dimensions of a real Luger, they have very little steel in them. Ones like yours have only the frame and trigger that are cast, and they tend to work a little better than the others, too, although they can be cranky in operation. They were attractive to Dr. Robert Beeman (Dr. Airgun), who added them to his line of high quality airguns and sold them, Beeman branded, as the P08 (.22 cal.) and MP08 (.32 &.380).

I now have a dozen or so different examples of different models and have attended to various issues with them, most with some success. I have all sorts of parts for the Erma toggle pistols, so for most such issues you're covered. Our Lugerdoc has also worked on them and has some parts, too. And we can also look forward to a new reference book about Erma production and history by Holger Schlemier, a collector who lives in Belgium, who has been collecting serial number and marking info on them for the past few years.

Since these are actually less numerous than original Lugers, I predict you will be interrupted at the range by the curious. Enjoy1

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

The grip frames of these models are cast Zamak--a zinc alloy.

Dave, I seem to recall from a previous thread that the 'bigger' calibers had steel frames...

Regardless, I don't think I would be confident shooting a Zamak framed anything...

[Eugen]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Nice catch, as you say- not a screaming bargain- but a good looking example.

I've been on the lookout for one also, but at a "bargain" price!

Don, no bargain for sure. Blind desire rarely ends with a bargain deal. I wanted it and I got it. LOL I thought I'd improve my chances of reaching an agreement by being on the high side once they contacted the consignor. I made an impromptu decision that I did not want to engage in an internet search or bidding for one on GunBroker or some other market where I could not handle and examine it. I saw it, I played with it and I wanted it.

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I only have a PDF on the Erma conversion kit...

This was a DVD I bought some years ago, it has all of these manuals on it...

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Erma68/erma68.html


http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_milit...uger_erma.html

Good info. Thank you sir.

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Eugene,

Yep, I also succumbed to the Erma bug once my immune system had been compromised by the Parabellum. I think you did on the high side of OK in your purchase, as these seem to have jumped up a bit for what they bring, compared to just a few years ago, The grip frames of these models are cast Zamak--a zinc alloy. As such, this major part is a major pain when it comes to showing wear in the finish. Fortunately, yours does not seem to have much in the typical areas on the front edges and corners, which are usually abraded to grey there.

I like the KGPs better than the early La and Ep series .22s made in the 60s. The earlier ones may have the same weight and approximate overall dimensions of a real Luger, they have very little steel in them. Ones like yours have only the frame and trigger that are cast, and they tend to work a little better than the others, too, although they can be cranky in operation. They were attractive to Dr. Robert Beeman (Dr. Airgun), who added them to his line of high quality airguns and sold them, Beeman branded, as the P08 (.22 cal.) and MP08 (.32 &.380).

I now have a dozen or so different examples of different models and have attended to various issues with them, most with some success. I have all sorts of parts for the Erma toggle pistols, so for most such issues you're covered. Our Lugerdoc has also worked on them and has some parts, too. And we can also look forward to a new reference book about Erma production and history by Holger Schlemier, a collector who lives in Belgium, who has been collecting serial number and marking info on them for the past few years.

Since these are actually less numerous than original Lugers, I predict you will be interrupted at the range by the curious. Enjoy1

ithacaartist, after reading John's post, you were just the man I was waiting to hear from. Thank you for the info. I will PM you when I get a chance to follow up on a list of typical wear/replacement parts that I should stock, and for other new owner advice.

[Mac Cat]

The gun looks like it's hardly been used or handled.

I think some of those shops keep a Luger in the case, just to keep people interested and looking around. I've found more than one that they were clearly not planning to sell and had ridiculously high prices on them.

[Lugerdoc]

Eugen, Not too bad a price, as ddealer cost on these when they were still being imported was around $350. i do have an original KGP 68A Manual available for your pistol. PM sent today. Tom

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Dave, I seem to recall from a previous thread that the 'bigger' calibers had steel frames...

Regardless, I don't think I would be confident shooting a Zamak framed anything...

Aah, I shoot mine all the time. I'm trying to get a .32 or .380 to be dependable enough to take to an IDPA match or two in the "backup gun" category. We shall see. The one I want to take is a .32, but it behaves as if the mag spring is too strong. The mag springs are a bear, as Eugen will find out, and you really need a loading tool to fill them up and still have skin left on your fingers. If the one that came with it is absent, grind out the "lip" of an otherwise defunct Luger tool and hang on tight! (The lip will fit under the follower button, but wedges itself there and the whole deal binds. It needs a straight-sided hole.)

The KGP series, as mentioned, has only a Zamak frame and trigger--the latter is impossible to "straw," and I must make a steel copy for my "Ermarican Eagle" project. This is in contrast to the earlier, full-size models, which only contain steel barrel liner (Zamak cast around it), breech block, and small parts. My pal Holger, the author, says that not even prototypes--of which he has one or more--were steel.

The KGP pistols probably did sell for what Tom recalls, particularly the Beeman branded ones that had some different features specified, but they started out in '68 costing around $89.95. The mostly-zinc, earlier models debuted at $49.95 in the early mid 60s.

On any of them, there is no movement of the upper because they are blow-back action. Hence, no wear from friction on the interface with the grip frame, whether steel-on-Zamak or both parts Zamak. The locking bolt transfers the forces of ignition to the frame in a beefy area, so no worries about breaking anything that way. The early ones have Zamak toggle joint components which are indeed very susceptible to being broken by too-powerful hyper velocity rounds, which hammer the action against itself just like a P.08 when shooting +P ammo! The only other way to harm them is to drop one, as they will shatter off the trigger guard, or the cast front sight leaf of the earlies.

[kurusu]

Maybe one of those cheap reprodution P08 loading tools they, have a straight hole.
And no need to ruin a good loading tool.

[Eugen]

I wanted to inquire if these ERMAs are C&R eligible? The gun shop seemed unsure so they said no. Hence my need to wait 3 days to possess it. I don't know the year the pistol was made; perhaps the serial number will reveal the year. Anyway if they are eligible, how do I prove that to the guys at the shop?

[ithacaartist]

Don E.,

On the left side of the grip frame is a group of proof marks. One of them, two digits in a little shield, is the year of manufacture. What's the cut-off, 50 years? Then no, the KGP pistols would be modern. And if so, 1966 or before would be C&R.

Unfortunately, unless one can wrangle a discount at some supplier or other, a C&R is absolutely worthless in NY State due to State Police regulations. No SBRs or suppressors permitted, federally allowable notwithstanding. We have to have ammo sent to a dealer and p/u there. Still no background check for ammo yet, such as the latest law "requires."

[Eugen]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Don E.,

On the left side of the grip frame is a group of proof marks. One of them, two digits in a little shield, is the year of manufacture. What's the cut-off, 50 years? Then no, the KGP pistols would be modern. And if so, 1966 or before would be C&R.

Unfortunately, unless one can wrangle a discount at some supplier or other, a C&R is absolutely worthless in NY State due to State Police regulations. No SBRs or suppressors permitted, federally allowable notwithstanding. We have to have ammo sent to a dealer and p/u there. Still no background check for ammo yet, such as the latest law "requires."

Dave, thanks for the info. I called the shop (1.5 hours from me) and conveyed your information. Regretfully he was unable to find anything as I read your description. Is the mark on the frame and under the grip? I guess I am resigned to waiting the three days. Ugh!

IL is worst than most, but better than some states when it comes to restrictions on our second amendment rights. NY appears to be worse. The exception in Chicagoland where the restrictions are far greater than down state where I leave. Chicago land has a lot of idiots with guns and shoot each other at the rate of 5,000 a year. All their restrictions don't seem to help much. LOL

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Eugen

...he was unable to find anything as I read your description. Is the mark on the frame and under the grip?

Oops, some of the KGP68As have them, but most do not seem to. If there, it would be in the same area as the circled Erma stamp on yours. It is on only 1 in 4 of this model in my collection. None of my 5 KGP69s has this proof, but all my earlier series (La, Ep, Et.22) have them. I know that the KGP serial number range began at around 100k, so yours is a relatively early example. Holger's book may enable you to dial it in much closer. But whatever the case, it would definitely have been made no earlier than 1968, the year that designates the model.

Originally it was just KGP-68, without the "A" suffix to the model name. I believe the KGP-68 production remained in Europe. KGP-68A model was imported to the U.S., and according to the 1968 regulations here, it has a magazine safety, as you've probably noticed, so the gun will not fire without a mag in place. The action cannot be flexed with the gun on safe, either. It will come back a tad, but no further.

[Eugen]

Dave, thank you for taking the time to provide such an informative response. I enjoy learning such details. It really adds to the enjoyment of ownership.

[Eugen]

I just wanted to provide an update for folks.

After I got the little Luger I took it to the range and had multiple FTEs and was very disappointed with the pistols' performance.

I disassembled the toggle and I discovered that I had a badly chipped extractor. I got in contact with ithacartist, and he was immensely helpful. He sent me a high quality repo extractor kit along with detailed install instructions. The install went fine. Without the detail info I would have surely struggled with the work. I took the gun back to the range and blasted off 50 rounds of WWB with near flawless results.

OK, I had one FTE. Hey, I'll take 49/50 on a non CCW, C&R vintage pistol all day.

I later got a spare mag and a beautiful set of wooden "German P.08 little junior" grips from him. Those brown plastic oem jobs looked way too toy like to me. Attached is a photo of the unfinished grips. I applied two coats of BLO and they look great.

I am a happy ERMA owner now.

If anyone needs ERMA advice David is the guy to contact. ithacartist, is the ERMA man!