1917 Erfurt "police" P 08 with interesting features

[DonVoigt]

You all may know by now that I'm kind of crazy and like Police used luger pistols. On of the guys tells me "they all look alike" - why do you need more than one? I tell him it is the "history" sometimes "writ right in the steel".

I blame Ed Tinker , Dwight Gruber, and Don Maus and their great books on police lugers for this "affliction".

Here is the latest acquisition, bought from a member of the other luger board, they have or could see the pictures so I'm writing the story here.

The Basics:
-Accessories/Other: Black Police type holster with “4323” stamped upper right back; loading tool numbered 4323 with */s inspection

-Condition: VG-exc after rework, all matching numbers, matching DWM toggle(must have been added during rework), else all original Erfurt mfg. including well and original marked grips; bore excellent; police replacement but matching magazine

-Description and History:
1.0 – Std. 1917 military Erfurt P 08. Taken into police service sometime after WWI.

2.0 –Ugrade/Rework
Received sear safety and grooved(original #) firing pin after 1933 orders, never received mag. Safety, so either updated after 1937 or belonged to a German state other than Prussia(likely).
-A minor point is the un-numbered rear toggle pin, should be, but could have been replaced/lost anytime after re-work.

2.1-Center toggle link was replaced with a DWM marked part-numbered before finishing after re-work as the "23" has no ghosts. The toggle was replaced before the pistol received the sear safety, as the sear safety rivet is not blued- or else just the toggle center link was blued; the rest of the toggle train appears to be the original numbered and acceptance marked parts from Erfurt. The small pin in the top of the toggle is in the white and the breech block and toggle show more wear than the center link- a mystery for sure.
2.2 No police unit markings.

3.0 Magazine –
Has birch mag base with police # 1 and 4323 over scrubbed earlier number
3.1 - Mag body is scarce 1st type Haenel Schmeisser, with */k inspection, and flat checkered button; must be one of the 6,000 spare magazine bodies ordered from Haenel for replacement use in Sept. 1935.(Goertz and Sturgess)

Some interesting/puzzling to me questions raised, though there may be others!

A- Where was this pistol during the time it should have received the "1920" property marking?
Perhaps hidden from the IMKK in "black inventory" ?

B- When did it enter police service? Early on(1920) or after 1932?

C- Holster- For Jerry!
The police up-strap type holster is not marked, except for the pistol serial number in the upper right.
Is it a commercial holster pressed into police service?
Likely; if so when? It has the later "wide, integral" back piece to form the magazine pouch, but not the full stitching across, nor does it have a "strap retainer" for the up strap. The holster bears a resemblance to AKAH holsters shown in Goertz and Sturgess.

I was quite happy to add this rig, and to have an example of the early type Haenel Schmeisser Magazine. You will notice it has the angle cut and round spring of the early mags, not the straight cut of the second type Haenel type with zig-zag spring; in addition to the different shape of the follower button.

The star/k and star/s inspection markings on the magazine and tool are the two police inspectors whose names are fairly certainly known to be Krause and Schmidt.

Notice the markings on the frame and inside of the side plate, these may be original from 1917 or date to the rework- either way they would enable the pieces to be kept together. Note the small Erfurt acceptance marking on the trigger lever.

[Puretexan]

Wow! Sherlock Holmes would have had trouble deducing that much info, in the short
period of a time. Nice catch for sure.
Paul

[Don M]

Don, I suspect this pistol was one of the surplus P08s that were issued to the Gemeindepolizei (municipal police) in late 1934 - early 1935. Although I haven't specifically studied them, my impression is that these pistols came from a cache that did not receive the 1920 property stamp. They do not have police markings from the 1920s suggesting they remained in storage during the Weimar era. Also, most if not all do not have later unit markings, either because the Gemeindepolizei were not under orders to mark them or it was already known that marking was to be terminated.

Courtesy of Don Hallock, I have a translation by Görtz and/or Bryans (HWIS Cited Ref. 10) of an order from the Prussian Interior Ministry dated 3 October 1934 entitled Arming of the Gemeindepolizei stating, in part: "Delivery of pistols 08 ordered by municipal police forces in pursuance of circular directive 12 February 1934 - II E 1460a/333 (Ministerial Gazette p. 220) has been delayed because the pistols have first to be refurbished and fitted with the new safeties by the Police Institute for Technology." Sadly, this translation was not included in their book German Small Arms Markings.

Your pistol was probably reworked as part of this program. It seems likely that there was enough concern about the mag safeties by the time this gun was refurbished that it was not added.

[MAUSER88]

Nothing to add other then great looking rig!!!!

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Don M.
That bit of info goes a long way toward explaining this particular example.
1934-5 time frame fits what I see in the pistol, holster and markings included.

Gemeindepolizei -(from Wikipedia):
Municipalities with more than 2,000 residents, not having a State protection police(Schupo) presence, had to have a municipal police department. In municipalities with less than 2,000 residents, the Gendarmerie was in charge of police protection. During the war, it was planned to extend the responsibility of the Gendarmerie to all towns with less than 5,000 residents, but it did not take place except to a very limited extent. In 1942 municipal police departments existed in 1,338 municipalities with more than 5,000 residents. Of these, five had more than 100,000 residents; 22 had 50-100,00, 591 had 10-50,000, and 720 had 5-10,000 residents.

[Don M]

It would be nice to know more about this postulated "cache" of weapons.

[DonVoigt]

Don M,
sure would.

Other than a few vague references to the "black Reichswehr", and possible hidden stores- not much is said. It does seem that the Freikorps had little problems arming themselves and they don't seem like the kind of guys to give up their arms completely either.

Makes eminently good sense(and policy in the day) that some stores of weapons were "lost" and subsequently re- "found", around 1935-6.

[Eugen]

Well, this is fascinating police pistol story to follow. Nice score and sleuthing work, Don.