Stoeger Luger

[stg44fan]

I saw this last week and just couldn't help myself. Decided I had to have it. Stoeger .22lr Luger! Aluminum frame. Should be a fun little plinker. And I don't own a rim fire pistol so now I can go to the rim fire range with my buddys.

Down side. No magazine. Does any one have a extra mag or two they would sell?

[ithacaartist]

They come up regularly on Gunbroker, etc. I hope it works for you! Yours appears to have the good-looking checkered grips...

[stg44fan]

Thanks. Ive seen mags on gunbroker, ebay and numrich has them. Just thought someone on here may have one floating around.

[Eugen]

OP, congrats on your new to you Stoeger Luger. It appears to be mint condition. I wonder what happened to the own mags?!

[stg44fan]

Originally Posted by Eugen

OP, congrats on your new to you Stoeger Luger. It appears to be mint condition. I wonder what happened to the own mags?!

Thanks! Not quite mint but pretty close. Not sure how you lose a mag. Maybe dropped at the range and never noticed?

[JTD]

More like mags were put in a safe place by last owner.......
I have had a target model since I was a kid, and it is very good/ fun shooter. Mine feeds and functions perfectly. It likes CCI mini mag ammo. John

[Eugen]

Originally Posted by JTD

More like mags were put in a safe place by last owner.......
It likes CCI mini mag ammo. John

LOL, yes, I am still looking for several valuable possessions that I carefully put in a safe place. Still searching.

What is it about CCI Mini Mags that makes it work so well in so many different 22lr guns? Seriously, that ammo works so well on about any autoloader that there is no need to grab any other brand off the shelf.

[JTD]

I think it is just high quality standards in production. I love the stuff.

[DavidJayUden]

Agreed on CCI.
On a side note, I find that some of the Winchester hollow points I hoarded during the Great BHO .22 Famine really do not function in my old reliable .22 semi auto pistols. My favorite, a High Standard Military, absolutely refuses them, they all run directly into the lower feed ramp and jam, and no amount of coaxing will make them feed.
So I have a lifetime supply of .22 ammo for the revolvers..
dju

[Kyrie]

I’ve never had one of the Stoeger .22 Lugers. If you can find a magazine I’d love a range report!

ERMA did a sub-caliber Luger design, and these frequently come up on Gun Broker (especially, for some reason, the carbine versions). Here is one of the ERMA pistols, sold under the model designation “LA 22”:



These were well made, but composed of fragile materials. It was said there were two kinds of LA 22 owners, “Those owners looking for parts and those owners who would be looking for parts.” I started out as the second type of owner, and quickly graduated to be the first type.

ERMA also made versions in 7,65 Browning (.32 ACP) and 9 mm kurz (.380 ACP), and these were all steel, well made, and durable, Here is one of the .32 ACP guns:



The Spanish gun maker Emilio Alonoso produced a .22 Luger based loosely on the ERMA design under the model designation “LUR”:










The proof year code “N*1” indicated submission to the Eibar Proof House in 1968. Hese guns were a very small step up in quality from the ERMA LA 22.

Best,

Kyrie

[ithacaartist]

Larry,

Thanks for the Erma overview! If you don't mind, I'll flesh it out a little and include a correction... I was excited to see the LUR-produced pistol, and am curious as to what was improved in quality. N*1 is the Spanish date code for 1968.

The early Erma .22s applied the classic P.08 profile to their design. They were a combination of the blow-back, "Old Model" of 1936 (pic) and the toggle action found in their .22 conversion kits for the P.08. They are constructed almost entirely of cast Zamak, a zinc alloy. The barrel liner, breech block, and internals were steel. The alloy mimics the weight/density of steel, so the La and Ep-22s weigh about the same as an original Parabellum.

The KGP series was designed to maintain their "Luger-y" look, but in downsized configuration. The KGP 69--the .22 lr model--about 80%, and the KGP 68As--.32/.380--about 2/3-70%. They are not entirely steel construction, however. The grip frames (basically, the gun) and the trigger are still cast Zamak! You'll commonly find barrel lengths of either 3 1/2" or 4", but I once saw a 6" version of the KGP 69 that was quite handsome! In Europe, the blank/teargas/pepper spray-firing KGP 690 (one of my holy grails) can be found, in a modified 8mmK chambering.

The Ep-22, or "Navy Model" is basically an Ep-22 that was glorified by a 12" barrel with a cheesy, adjustable rear sight, also a bare rear toggle, similar to what you'd find an an Artillery Luger. Although 10,000 of these were made, it carries a mystique of being rare and pricey. You'll see a handful of them on Gunbroker at any given time, but they actually sell--when they sell-- for much less than the $800-1,200 that is usually asked for them.

Your pistols are both relatively early examples of their models, and the KGP 68A is in extra-nice shape due to the lack of blackening on the front corners of the frame. You're also extremely fortunate that it sports a pair of rosewood grips such as one would encounter on a Beeman-branded versions the good Dr. Airgun imported and distributed around the late 80s/early 90s. The original grips from the factory were removed and the artisan-made rosewood grips installed instead before they were sold. Nice, because I hate the plastic ones with the thumb rest! On the left sides of the frames, you'll find a shield-shaped stamps with 2-digit numbers within. This is the year of manufacture's last 2 digits.

There is a book that was written about Erma's history and production, and it's due out soon--last I heard--in German. The English version is slated to follow in another year or two... Holger Schlemeier, From Belgium, is its author. Erma-Werke was founded in the early 20s, and beyond the conversion kits for the P.08 and 98k, they also produced some 98k rifles, the MP40, and various flare guns. We will find out if I am correct when the book comes out!

I've fiddled with Erma toggle pistols for several years, now, and have a stash of most parts for them, which I sell on Gunbroker. If you need something, I'd likely be able and willing to help, with a forum discount, of course!

[stg44fan]

Ordered magazines a couple of nights ago. I will be sure to update you guys when I get it to the range.

Thanks for sharing the Erma info. I know very little about them. I was offered a KGP 68A in 380 ACP for $500 with a holster and extra mag. Decided to turn that one down since I found the Stoeger. Mistake?

[Kyrie]

Ithacaartist,

Thank you for your reply, and love the additional information.

I had been pursuing a LUR or many years before finally coming across one for sale (though it was in deplorable condition). It was, IMO, an improvement in quality over the LA 22 due to being made from more durable materials (small parts a nice quality of steel and the frame of what appeared to be aluminum). These were the same materials used by Emilio Alonoso in some of his other (admittedly low price point) handguns such at the “Fast” (also sold under a number of different model designations):



The KGP 68A likely dates to the late 1980s, or at least that is implied by the 1987 Munich proof house stamp:



I cannot speak to the construction of all KGP 68A pistols, but can say the one pictured was made from steel. I base this on observed attraction between its frame and the powerful magnet I kept on my bench to help find firearm small parts that had made a break for it and hidden themselves in hard to reach places. I had assumed the frame to be aluminum (it didn’t feel like the pot metal used in the LA 22) and was surprised when I set it down on my bench and the magnet gloomed onto it.

While I pursued the LUR, and bought the KGP 68A on a whim, I ended up with the LA 22 pretty much against my wishes. I got it in a complicated three way trade only because I had to take it to get another pistol that I needed to make the complicated trade work. I found I literally couldn’t give it away and it sat above my bench, swinging on a nail, for some years before I finally threw it away. While I had high regard for the 68A, my feeling toward the La22 was it was a sorry example of the gun makers’ art.

Best,

Kyrie

[ithacaartist]

Kyrie, your "magnetic" experience is curious, indeed. If the mag were installed, or if the magnet were powerful enough to attract the mag safety linkage bar, it might explain what happened. According to Hn. Schlemeier, not even the prototypes made by Erma, of any model, were steel. He has collected some, IIRC.

[Kyrie]

I can only report to you my experience. I had the mag out, put the pistol down on my bench next to the magnet, and the two stuck together on the grip frame. Was the magnet a strong magnet? You betcha. It was strong enough help get grip screws out from behind my bench if I could get it anywhere near them.

If the frame was non-ferrous could it have been attracted to some steel internal part? Never thought of it and haven’t a clue at this point in time. Could be. Or it could be Schlemeier was misinformed. Or something else.

The only thing I’m sure of is I had to pull the magnet off the frame.

[ithacaartist]

We'll probably never know for sure. Well, unless that particular pistol were found again and double-checked. I have a rare earth magnet from a pc hard drive's guts attached to a golf club shaft for my parts finder. It is small, agile, and quite strong. The rule for rare earth magnets is never to put skin in between two of them.

I can imagine that to machine a KGP Erma from steel would require even more operations than a Luger. I'd wager my left one that it was never done commercially, considering that the Mauser Lugers that were produced a few years thereafter cost around $700 dollars at the time, and the Erma pistols sold for under a hundred bucks back then. The 70s Mauser production, I'm led to believe, took advantage of everything technology offered at that time in order to minimize the price, including many cast parts. The pic below is a low res image of part of Holger's collection of Erma toggle pistols.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Ithacaartist,

Thank you for your reply, and love the additional information.

I had been pursuing a LUR or many years before finally coming across one for sale (though it was in deplorable condition). It was, IMO, an improvement in quality over the LA 22 due to being made from more durable materials (small parts a nice quality of steel and the frame of what appeared to be aluminum). These were the same materials used by Emilio Alonoso in some of his other (admittedly low price point) handguns such at the “Fast” (also sold under a number of different model designations):



The KGP 68A likely dates to the late 1980s, or at least that is implied by the 1987 Munich proof house stamp:



I cannot speak to the construction of all KGP 68A pistols, but can say the one pictured was made from steel. I base this on observed attraction between its frame and the powerful magnet I kept on my bench to help find firearm small parts that had made a break for it and hidden themselves in hard to reach places. I had assumed the frame to be aluminum (it didn’t feel like the pot metal used in the LA 22) and was surprised when I set it down on my bench and the magnet gloomed onto it.

While I pursued the LUR, and bought the KGP 68A on a whim, I ended up with the LA 22 pretty much against my wishes. I got it in a complicated three way trade only because I had to take it to get another pistol that I needed to make the complicated trade work. I found I literally couldn’t give it away and it sat above my bench, swinging on a nail, for some years before I finally threw it away. While I had high regard for the 68A, my feeling toward the La22 was it was a sorry example of the gun makers’ art.

Best,

Kyrie

I own the double of your FAST pistol, only ~13K serial # earlier. I have owned it since the early 1970s. It was given to me, as it wouldn't function correctly, and had no grips or grip screws. I finally found a new mag and did a bit of tuning and got it to function for me. Mine likes full power ammo only. A quality handgun......no, but it does function now, and resides in my toolbox out in my workshop.