filed off hold-open

cactus-one · 02-21-2004, 06:04 PM

I have a byf dated 42 Luger. It was taken from a prisoner in Koblenz, Germany. I bought it from the man who brought it home, and he assures me he never messed with it in any way. Yet somewhere along the line the hold-open was filed down where it meets the magazine, so that the pistol in effect, has no hold open. In Datigs book he mentions that in WWI the hold-open was not universally liked. Could this have also been the case in WW2, so that some men disbled the hold-open? Has anyone encountered anything similar to this?

John Sabato · 02-21-2004, 07:22 PM

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

I have not seen anything like this myself, and never heard that story about the hold-open being disliked. If that were the case, it would be a simple matter to remove the holdopen device and throw it away or simply store it, rather than modify it and leave it in place. No tools are required for removal of the holdopen.

I no longer have a copy of Datig's book, but I think I recall that the initial adoption of the Luger by the German army didn't include the holdopen simply as a cost savings measure, and then there combat officers realized how important it would be to realize you were out of ammo and quickly reload, than to save a few pfennig on leaving out the holdopen from the manufacturing specs and it was made a required feature... but I may be wrong. Maybe you could recheck what the book says about that?

Another possibility is that the magazine is worn or not a good fit with the holdopen. Try resting the butt on a hard surface like a table to make sure it is seated in the highest possible position and then work the toggle and see if the holdopen is functional. If it holds open the toggle it could be a work magazine latch or a worn mag catch hole in the magazine.

Doubs · 02-21-2004, 08:25 PM

Like John, I have my doubts that it was common for a soldier to file down the hold-open to disable it. That's not to say it didn't happen as people are capable of some incredible things but it's a valuable feature IMO for a soldier to know his pistol is empty.

It could also be that the magazine button isn't pressing upward enough to engage the hold open... again, as John has suggested.

Is there any way you could take a good, clear picture of the hold open in the pistol?

cactus-one · 02-21-2004, 08:37 PM

Chapter 8 (page 113) of the 5th printing of Datigs book: "For some reason the Germany Army did not favor the hold open device, and it, too, was deleted, though not for long." No, the magazine is not worn. The hold-open has clearly had approximately 1/16" filed off of it where it contacts the magazine. And I agree, why not just remove it? At any rate, it was not discarded, but filed.

cactus-one · 02-21-2004, 08:39 PM

I have another Luger, a 1939 dated S/42. I have compared the 2 hold-open devices. There is no mistake it has been filed down.

Edward Tinker · 02-21-2004, 08:40 PM

I would take a guess that "some" soldier didn't like the hold-open, for whatever reason and filed it?

I have seen many instances of a trained armorer, or veterinarian or doctor give advice, but the guy in the trench listens to the back-yard lawyer. My point is, that it is very possible that some WW1 vet told his son, grandson, or neighbors kid that those damn hold-opens will get you killed, and so junior filed it down.

No way to scan in this gun or take a picture George?

Ed

cactus-one · 02-21-2004, 08:50 PM

I have no digital camera, I hate to admit. Am I the last person without one? I agree, some soldier did this, but I cannot see any advantage to it. Can anyone suggest where I can get another hold-open? I appreciate the help, and I am know I will enjoy your Forum very much.

Doubs · 02-21-2004, 08:58 PM

Cactus-One, check with Lugerdoc (Tom Heller) who posts here. He's likely to have the part you need. As the hold-open should be numbered to the gun, saving the original would be a good idea.

John Sabato · 02-23-2004, 12:57 PM

You can often find Hold open parts on eBay, and I think there are at least two being auctioned at the moment, but I would also recommend Tom Heller as a reliable source.

BTW, original hold open springs are hard to come by... even Tom has a problem getting them. I would recommend that for shooting to install one of the commonly available East German VOPO replacements that come with springs that are not compatible with original parts... They would be the least expensive option for making your Luger completely functional, and won't require you to remove the original spring from your original holdopen.

02-21-2004, 06:04 PM	#1
cactus-one User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	filed off hold-open I have a byf dated 42 Luger. It was taken from a prisoner in Koblenz, Germany. I bought it from the man who brought it home, and he assures me he never messed with it in any way. Yet somewhere along the line the hold-open was filed down where it meets the magazine, so that the pistol in effect, has no hold open. In Datigs book he mentions that in WWI the hold-open was not universally liked. Could this have also been the case in WW2, so that some men disbled the hold-open? Has anyone encountered anything similar to this?

02-21-2004, 07:22 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum. I have not seen anything like this myself, and never heard that story about the hold-open being disliked. If that were the case, it would be a simple matter to remove the holdopen device and throw it away or simply store it, rather than modify it and leave it in place. No tools are required for removal of the holdopen. I no longer have a copy of Datig's book, but I think I recall that the initial adoption of the Luger by the German army didn't include the holdopen simply as a cost savings measure, and then there combat officers realized how important it would be to realize you were out of ammo and quickly reload, than to save a few pfennig on leaving out the holdopen from the manufacturing specs and it was made a required feature... but I may be wrong. Maybe you could recheck what the book says about that? Another possibility is that the magazine is worn or not a good fit with the holdopen. Try resting the butt on a hard surface like a table to make sure it is seated in the highest possible position and then work the toggle and see if the holdopen is functional. If it holds open the toggle it could be a work magazine latch or a worn mag catch hole in the magazine. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-21-2004, 08:40 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I would take a guess that "some" soldier didn't like the hold-open, for whatever reason and filed it? I have seen many instances of a trained armorer, or veterinarian or doctor give advice, but the guy in the trench listens to the back-yard lawyer. My point is, that it is very possible that some WW1 vet told his son, grandson, or neighbors kid that those damn hold-opens will get you killed, and so junior filed it down. No way to scan in this gun or take a picture George? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-23-2004, 12:57 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	You can often find Hold open parts on eBay, and I think there are at least two being auctioned at the moment, but I would also recommend Tom Heller as a reliable source. BTW, original hold open springs are hard to come by... even Tom has a problem getting them. I would recommend that for shooting to install one of the commonly available East German VOPO replacements that come with springs that are not compatible with original parts... They would be the least expensive option for making your Luger completely functional, and won't require you to remove the original spring from your original holdopen. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-21-2004, 08:25 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	Like John, I have my doubts that it was common for a soldier to file down the hold-open to disable it. That's not to say it didn't happen as people are capable of some incredible things but it's a valuable feature IMO for a soldier to know his pistol is empty. It could also be that the magazine button isn't pressing upward enough to engage the hold open... again, as John has suggested. Is there any way you could take a good, clear picture of the hold open in the pistol?

02-21-2004, 08:37 PM	#4
cactus-one User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Chapter 8 (page 113) of the 5th printing of Datigs book: "For some reason the Germany Army did not favor the hold open device, and it, too, was deleted, though not for long." No, the magazine is not worn. The hold-open has clearly had approximately 1/16" filed off of it where it contacts the magazine. And I agree, why not just remove it? At any rate, it was not discarded, but filed.

02-21-2004, 08:39 PM	#5
cactus-one User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have another Luger, a 1939 dated S/42. I have compared the 2 hold-open devices. There is no mistake it has been filed down.

02-21-2004, 08:50 PM	#7
cactus-one User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have no digital camera, I hate to admit. Am I the last person without one? I agree, some soldier did this, but I cannot see any advantage to it. Can anyone suggest where I can get another hold-open? I appreciate the help, and I am know I will enjoy your Forum very much.

02-21-2004, 08:58 PM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	Cactus-One, check with Lugerdoc (Tom Heller) who posts here. He's likely to have the part you need. As the hold-open should be numbered to the gun, saving the original would be a good idea.