DWM 513A cartridge - original Test Luger round

[Edward Tinker]

In 2013 I was at a Pennsylvania Cartridge Collecting show and talked to a fellow forum member (thank you Johnny) and he put me in touch with a collector that had a DWM made 45 acp - an original cartridge from the test trials. I asked another forum member for some help in determining its authenticity and he said, IF another one ever comes up for sale..." I offered it to him, and he took it.


Come back to 2 weeks ago and the same collector reached out to me, and he had another cartridge for sale. In his words...

, I do have a single round of the .45 DWM 513 A. The headstamp on the base of the cartridge case is as follows: at twelve o'clock, it reads DWM (capital letters), at six o'clock, it reads 513 A (capital A with the numerals 513 approximately the same heighth as the letters), and at 9 o'clock and three o'clock there is a capital K, for Karlsruhe , one of "Deutche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken" (DWM)'s manufacturing plants. The cartridge has a brass case, a small brass Berdan primer, a cupronickle, roundnose full metal jacket bullet that is slightly blunter at the tip than the familiar American 230 grain ball round. It has a slight cannelure around the case at the base of the bullet. It is difficult sometimes to tell if there is an actual cannelure ( a groove pressed or cut into a cartridge case to support the base of a bullet) or a slight reduction in the diameter of the cartridge to form a sort of shelf that supports the bullet. My copy of Fred A. Datig's book " DWM CARTRIDGES 1896-1956" shows a drawing of the 513 A case with the heading : "Autom. Colt-Pistole Kal. 11.43mm (.45") Amerikan. Armee Mod." and a definite cannelure.


The story of the cartridge, as told to me by other collectors, is that a Swiss gentleman discovered a partial box of the 513 A ammunition, and like iron filings to a magnet, the cartridges were drawn to the American cartridge collecting network. Ever since the first self-contained cartridges were produced, people world wide have been collecting them.


It was in the U.S. however, that the first cartridge collecting clubs, newsletters and cartridge shows were organized. Also, there are more cartridge collectors in America than any where else in the world. So with a greater demand, the majority (but not all) of the DWM 513 A cartridges have disappeared into American collections. A lot of collectors specialize in .45 a.c.p. ammunition, others in military ammo, still others like automatic pistol rounds.There are scads of fanatical DWM collectors who want one of every case number made by DWM. Just my DWM book is worth hundreds of dollars to those guys! The 513A cartridge IS the Crown Jewel of a number of different collecting specialties.

This is now sitting in my collection

[gunnertwo]

Grail.

G2

[Zorba]

Shoot it, shoot it! In a .45 Luger, of course!

[Major Tom]

WOW! That's amazing! I'd be happy with original 9mm truncated ammo as first used in lugers.

[sheepherder]

Very cool addition to your collection!

One question: Your collector friend stated it had a Berdan primer. I'm sure he's correct - but without removing the bullet & contents, it's not possible to tell. Yes, you can say "because DWM only made Berdan", but that's not empirical proof. Did he have a picture or example of a fired case???

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Very cool addition to your collection!

One question: Your collector friend stated it had a Berdan primer. I'm sure he's correct - but without removing the bullet & contents, it's not possible to tell. Yes, you can say "because DWM only made Berdan", but that's not empirical proof. Did he have a picture or example of a fired case???

Rich, I would not know - I will look in Sturgess later - and maybe someone has Datig's book on DWM cartridges? I had never heard of it?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Rich, I would not know - I will look in Sturgess later - and maybe someone has Datig's book on DWM cartridges? I had never heard of it?

What?

I only ask because when someone makes a sweeping generalization, I immediately think they are full of ****. If they qualify the statement with, 'probably', 'usually', 'almost always', etc then I will accept their claim subject to later proof.

There is a member of this forum who makes wild claims and flights of fancy and presents them here as 'facts'. And he gets very indignant if you don't accept his theories.

In the case of your cartridge, I would be confident that it is a Berdan primer. But I would never swear to it...

I'm from Missouri...

[milesc2]

If you don't mind me asking, what does something like this cost?
I know nothing about cartridge collecting and would like to better understand the market.

[Edward Tinker]

I have this feeling I am not writing clearly as the year ends.

Up above, first posting - comments about Datigs book on DWM - it states size and shape - I would assume it would say or show a cutaway, at least a drawing, in his book, which I do not have or remembered existed.

I said I would look in Sturgess' book. I do not know any other way to check it. It is far too expensive of a cartridge to open up and look...

[rhuff]

That is awesome to actually have one of the test 45cal cartridges. Talk about "hen's teeth"!!

[wlyon]

Way to go Ed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bill

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I do not know any other way to check it. It is far too expensive of a cartridge to open up and look...

Nor would any sane person suggest it. I often store my empties with the unfired rounds in the 50 rd box. If your friend was sure it was Berdan, then he may have examined a fired case.

Let's see what TBLAP has to say...Oow...Quite a bit, actually...Pages 1594 on, in the DVD edition...

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Nor would any sane person suggest it. I often store my empties with the unfired rounds in the 50 rd box. If your friend was sure it was Berdan, then he may have examined a fired case.

Let's see what TBLAP has to say...Oow...Quite a bit, actually...Pages 1594 on, in the DVD edition...

Interesting - now I need a 513 only