Beat up 1911 DWM. Rework???

nnickons · 07-06-2018, 10:16 PM

Hello all, I am a long time milsurp collector but new to Lugers.

I Picked up this pretty beat up 1911 DWM pretty cheap and have a few questions about it's history. The gun came out of an estate, and is definitely a bring-back but I'm not certain when it got here. It seems to have an Erfurt(?) frame and a Simson sear, it is also not 1920 property marked.
Now I'm not necessarily a "Luger guy" so hopefully some of the more enlightened among you can get me learnt on what's going on here.

All numbers (that I can find) match except
- trigger
- takedown lever (unnumbered)
- hold open (unnumbered)
- grips (WWII production, marked "S" with an eagle/655)
- sear, marked eagle/6

Barrel is either unnumbered or the number has been obliterated by time (looks like possible "n" suffix still visible. The suffix (if there ever was one) is gone from the frame.

Thanks in advance for the help, it's great to be among the expertise of so many knowledgeable people

additional photos here https://photos.app.goo.gl/2WpC9JAt12cwTV6r7

Edward Tinker · 07-06-2018, 10:34 PM

Not sure there is much I can help you with

as you are on and correct

pre-WW1 made Luger that went into army service in 1911
It has an interesting rc eagle - which is an acceptance by a supervisor at the factory once it was turned down (see FAQ)

post war it came to America - could be a bring back, it could be a import - as many were marked germany or made in germany when made new or refurbished by DWM, but lots of lugers were imported without being export marked or import marked prior to 1968

The sear could be a replacement by an armorer or by whomever put on other missing or mixed up parts, or it could be that at one time in the mid 1920's (1925+) to about 1934 when Simson was the official manufacturer and refurbisher for the army.

Ed

nnickons · 07-06-2018, 11:09 PM

Thanks Ed!

So is it safe to assume that the frame was matched to the cannon at an arsenal? Also is it likely the S/n on the barrel extension added at a later date (presumably at this possible rework date) and why is the letter suffix not present?

Edit: Just for my own interests, are there any good resources on the German arsenal process for this era?

HerrKaiser · 07-07-2018, 03:56 PM

Your pistol has also been re-blued

wlyon · 07-07-2018, 04:25 PM

Basically with the number of mismatched parts it is a parts gun. Not really collectible but would make a good shooter. Hard to impossible to tell when or where all this was done. I would say not arsenal related. All lugers are interesting and valuable so enjoy. Bill

nnickons · 07-07-2018, 05:12 PM

Oh yeah, I am under no illusion that this is a "collectible" example in the classical sense, more-so collectible to me as an interesting old gun with character. And I certainly paid nowhere near collector prices. Really only inquiring to satiate my own curiosity. I'm accustom to British Commonwealth guns where the entire history of the weapon is stamped on the buttstock

nnickons · 07-07-2018, 05:13 PM

What indicates a reblue? If it has been it was certainly a while ago

Edward Tinker · 07-07-2018, 05:28 PM

I am not looking at pictures --- bluing in the pits (can also be age sometimes), smooth ears (part on the outside near rear of toggle), ejector / extractor blued, light markings, washed out markings

nnickons · 07-07-2018, 07:03 PM

Last question, I promise lol. What are the possible reasons for the sideplate being double numbered (bottom and side) as well as the toggle (inside and outside)?

HerrKaiser · 07-07-2018, 07:06 PM

What gave it away most obviously to me was the lack of strawed parts like trigger, mag release, and the like. Also saw it in the pitting. Mauser didn’t start dip bluing Lugers until 1937, DWM and Erfurt Models only rust blued.

nnickons · 07-07-2018, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

What gave it away most obviously to me was the lack of strawed parts like trigger, mag release, and the like. Also saw it in the pitting. Mauser didn’t start dip bluing Lugers until 1937, DWM and Erfurt Models only rust blued.

The mag release and ejector are strawed, just very dark/dirty from corrosion and age. The trigger shows no signs of bluing inside or out

nnickons · 07-07-2018, 09:37 PM

Also, does this look like an E/ArA4 to anyone? What is that marking associated with?

Located just left of 12 o'clock on top of the barrel

DonVoigt · 07-07-2018, 10:24 PM

I believe your barrel was replaced in Weimar era, given the proof you show and also the "Weimar type" eagle below the barrel gage marking on the bottom.

The side plate first was on a commercial or early first Issue DWM luger, then re-used and re-numbered to the pistol, likely when the barrel was added during a re-work. It is pretty mixed up, but largely a 1911 DWM upper on a post 1913 Erfurt frame.

Trying to "figure" it out is tough, and my guesses above may be wrong- but it really does not matter much!

It is a shooter- if it shoots!

Welcome to the forum.

07-06-2018, 10:16 PM	#1
nnickons User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Michigan Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Beat up 1911 DWM. Rework??? Hello all, I am a long time milsurp collector but new to Lugers. I Picked up this pretty beat up 1911 DWM pretty cheap and have a few questions about it's history. The gun came out of an estate, and is definitely a bring-back but I'm not certain when it got here. It seems to have an Erfurt(?) frame and a Simson sear, it is also not 1920 property marked. Now I'm not necessarily a "Luger guy" so hopefully some of the more enlightened among you can get me learnt on what's going on here. All numbers (that I can find) match except - trigger - takedown lever (unnumbered) - hold open (unnumbered) - grips (WWII production, marked "S" with an eagle/655) - sear, marked eagle/6 Barrel is either unnumbered or the number has been obliterated by time (looks like possible "n" suffix still visible. The suffix (if there ever was one) is gone from the frame. Thanks in advance for the help, it's great to be among the expertise of so many knowledgeable people additional photos here https://photos.app.goo.gl/2WpC9JAt12cwTV6r7 Attached Thumbnails

07-06-2018, 10:34 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Not sure there is much I can help you with as you are on and correct pre-WW1 made Luger that went into army service in 1911 It has an interesting rc eagle - which is an acceptance by a supervisor at the factory once it was turned down (see FAQ) post war it came to America - could be a bring back, it could be a import - as many were marked germany or made in germany when made new or refurbished by DWM, but lots of lugers were imported without being export marked or import marked prior to 1968 The sear could be a replacement by an armorer or by whomever put on other missing or mixed up parts, or it could be that at one time in the mid 1920's (1925+) to about 1934 when Simson was the official manufacturer and refurbisher for the army. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-07-2018, 03:56 PM	#4
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Your pistol has also been re-blued __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

07-07-2018, 04:25 PM	#5
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,636 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,559 Times in 955 Posts	Basically with the number of mismatched parts it is a parts gun. Not really collectible but would make a good shooter. Hard to impossible to tell when or where all this was done. I would say not arsenal related. All lugers are interesting and valuable so enjoy. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

07-07-2018, 07:06 PM	#10
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	What gave it away most obviously to me was the lack of strawed parts like trigger, mag release, and the like. Also saw it in the pitting. Mauser didn’t start dip bluing Lugers until 1937, DWM and Erfurt Models only rust blued. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

07-06-2018, 11:09 PM	#3
nnickons User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Michigan Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ed! So is it safe to assume that the frame was matched to the cannon at an arsenal? Also is it likely the S/n on the barrel extension added at a later date (presumably at this possible rework date) and why is the letter suffix not present? Edit: Just for my own interests, are there any good resources on the German arsenal process for this era?

07-07-2018, 05:12 PM	#6
nnickons User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Michigan Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh yeah, I am under no illusion that this is a "collectible" example in the classical sense, more-so collectible to me as an interesting old gun with character. And I certainly paid nowhere near collector prices. Really only inquiring to satiate my own curiosity. I'm accustom to British Commonwealth guns where the entire history of the weapon is stamped on the buttstock

07-07-2018, 05:13 PM	#7
nnickons User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Michigan Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What indicates a reblue? If it has been it was certainly a while ago

07-07-2018, 05:28 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I am not looking at pictures --- bluing in the pits (can also be age sometimes), smooth ears (part on the outside near rear of toggle), ejector / extractor blued, light markings, washed out markings

07-07-2018, 07:03 PM	#9
nnickons User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Michigan Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Last question, I promise lol. What are the possible reasons for the sideplate being double numbered (bottom and side) as well as the toggle (inside and outside)?

07-07-2018, 09:37 PM	#12
nnickons User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Michigan Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, does this look like an E/ArA4 to anyone? What is that marking associated with? Located just left of 12 o'clock on top of the barrel Attached Thumbnails

07-07-2018, 10:24 PM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I believe your barrel was replaced in Weimar era, given the proof you show and also the "Weimar type" eagle below the barrel gage marking on the bottom. The side plate first was on a commercial or early first Issue DWM luger, then re-used and re-numbered to the pistol, likely when the barrel was added during a re-work. It is pretty mixed up, but largely a 1911 DWM upper on a post 1913 Erfurt frame. Trying to "figure" it out is tough, and my guesses above may be wrong- but it really does not matter much! It is a shooter- if it shoots! Welcome to the forum. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie