1900 American Eagle w/Swiss proof

Mike B · 02-28-2006, 10:35 PM

Once in a great while an event comes along where all thing come together better than any planning could have provided for. Such was the case this past weekend in Louisville at the SOS weekend and the Gun Show. I would like to take this opportunity personally thank Ken of FGS Enterprises, Don Rousseau and Bob Hogan, Luger collectors and advisors, Ron Wood , Tom Beasley and Tom Aiena of the Luger Forum, and several other people whose names I cannot recall. While walking the aisles of the Gun Show, I came across a 1900 American Eagle Luger. Well, having Ron Wood at my side as an advisor was like having Colonel Sanders with you when are shopping for fried chicken. My first reaction to the Swiss Cross on an American Eagle was put it down and run away. But Ron said Ã¢??no problemÃ¢?Â. So here it is for all to see. An American Eagle with a Swiss proof. Not many around like it. It also has an abundance of the fabled Ã¢??flaming bombÃ¢?Â which I have been told is not a flaming bomb, but an inspectors mark. There is even one on the bottom of the wood base magazine. Any comments or input will be appreciated. Again, many thanks to the wonderful friends I was privileged to spend time with.

Mike

Pete Ebbink · 02-28-2006, 10:49 PM

Hi Mike,

Nice honest looking AE...

You might want to contact Tom Heller (aka LugerDoc) about a take-down lever. The one on your piece is most unusual and probably not factory issued...

Mike B · 02-28-2006, 11:14 PM

Pete,
Sorry I left you out the of the thanks. It was a pleasure meeting you. I forgot to mention the take-down lever. It is the original and someone did a masterful repair job. If you take a close look, it has been pinned and welded. I agree that a number match replacment would be great, but that is the original.
Mike

Pete Ebbink · 02-28-2006, 11:35 PM

Hi Mike,

Was the original checkered "knob" on the TD lever ground and beveled down...? Quite a repair job...

Another option would be to take the "knob" off of another TD lever and silver braze it to your # 14 piece...

Maybe this is something member PoliceLuger (aka Howard Collins) can do for you...he does gunsmithing in his retirement...

Ron Wood · 03-01-2006, 12:29 AM

Glad to have had a small hand in the purchase of this Luger. It is a nifty gun. I would be real tempted to keep the takedown lever as it is because it is part of this Luger's history and it is a super example of the gunsmithing art that salvages a broken part in a professional manner without any attempt to create a fake.

I have recorded two known batches of American Eagle Lugers with the Swiss cross marked barrel. The first series is the very earliest of AE Lugers from about serial #2020 to perhaps #2199 (I owned #2199 for a few years and I haven't encountered any higher numbers in that range so far). The next group, of which this one is included, is in the 8900 range, and I have recorded six examples in that lot.

Dwight Gruber · 03-01-2006, 04:22 AM

Mike emailed me after he got back with this 1900AE, and we discussed the Swiss cross. He asked me to post my comments to him on the forum.

"The Swiss cross stamp shows up on model 1900 barrels sporadically, in ranges including 315-513 (Commercial and Swiss Commercial), 2021-2199 (American Eagle), and 8935-8977 (American Eagle). Data within those ranges (and at their extremes) is sporadic, so they may or may not be continuous; may have other models within the ranges; and may extend beyond those numbers.

"The reason for the markings on non-Swiss military guns is unknown, but I have what I believe to be a reasonable WAG.

"The original 2,000-gun Swiss military order, which fixed the design of the model 1900 production Parabellum, was made in May, 1900. Production began shortly thereafter--I haven't been able to determine a firm date for the official beginning of Luger production. The first of the guns was delivered to Switzerland in early 1901; the contract was completed in early 1903, so it took two years for DWM to manufacture these 2,000 pistols.

"Swiss military Parabellums have a cross-over-letter in a small square cartouche on the left receiver. This is the mark of the Swiss official (usually a Col. Vogelsgang) present at DWM to accept the completed pistol. These guns also have small Swiss crosses on various parts, in much the same places as the German army would later require inspectors to stamp their acceptance marks (see Erfurt P-08 for examples). I have enquired after these marks; consensus is that these crosses were probably Swiss-inspection parts acceptance stamps applied during manufacture.

"I consider it likely that accepted parts were available for assembly into Swiss pistols during the entire 2-year period of the first Swiss military pistol contract. Model 1900 Commercial, Swiss Commercial, and American Eagle pistols were being made at the same time, likely in the same assembly areas (these pistols were not manufactured on assembly lines as we have come to understand the term). I think it likely that barrels were "borrowed" out of the Swiss-accepted barrel supply to complete assembly of three different batches of model 1900 commercial-series pistols."

After I saw pictures of his pistol I was moved to take 1900AE #2104 out of the safe, and look closely at the Swiss cross on its barrel. On both guns the barrel cross looks like it may have halo, and other characteristics of having been stamped through the blue. This is cause for some serious misapprehension about my conclusion, and I repeat it here with much less confidence than when I emailed Mike.

The topic of the Swiss cross on these model 1900 barrels is one in which I have been interested for some time, and I will appreciate knowledgable comments.

All this, by the way, is not to take anything away from the presentation of Mike's 1900AE, which I think is a pretty cool Luger. I agree with Ron about the nature of the takedown lever, it is a very clever repair in the service of keeping one of these pistols in operating condition.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 03-01-2006, 10:03 AM

Mike et al, I agree with the others, I would rather have the original repaired matching part, than a mismatch more standard TD lever. TH

Mike B · 03-01-2006, 11:42 PM

Many thanks to all for the kind words and great information. It is only thru a brotherhood such as this that we can gain and share such a wealth of knowledge. Please accept my sincere thanks. I mentioned earlier that the weekend was special. The gun show and military show was special indeed, but the Saturday night at the hotel evolved into a very special evening. My friend, Tom and I were privileged to be seated at the same table as a World War II US fighter pilot and a German Luftwaffe pilot. The two pilots were meeting for a reunion. A special reunion indeed, as the German pilot had been shot down some 60 plus years earlier by the US pilot. The night was filled was stories and laughter. Tom and I could not believe what we were privileged to. Later on, Tom learned that the US pilot was actually his commanding officer in 1969 in Viet Nam. We were later joined by the famous Flying Tiger fighter Ace Tex Hill. That alone was a special pleasure. It was a night I will not soon forget.
Thanks again,
Mike

Edward Tinker · 03-02-2006, 12:41 AM

cool, very cool... No, with these guys in attendence & tow, I would buy a flying pig if they told me she was a luger

Looks like something to keep

ed

idler · 05-27-2019, 05:30 PM

I have a swiss cross marking on my 1900 ae commercial sn. 8940.

02-28-2006, 10:35 PM	#1
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	1900 American Eagle w/Swiss proof Once in a great while an event comes along where all thing come together better than any planning could have provided for. Such was the case this past weekend in Louisville at the SOS weekend and the Gun Show. I would like to take this opportunity personally thank Ken of FGS Enterprises, Don Rousseau and Bob Hogan, Luger collectors and advisors, Ron Wood , Tom Beasley and Tom Aiena of the Luger Forum, and several other people whose names I cannot recall. While walking the aisles of the Gun Show, I came across a 1900 American Eagle Luger. Well, having Ron Wood at my side as an advisor was like having Colonel Sanders with you when are shopping for fried chicken. My first reaction to the Swiss Cross on an American Eagle was put it down and run away. But Ron said Ã¢??no problemÃ¢?Â. So here it is for all to see. An American Eagle with a Swiss proof. Not many around like it. It also has an abundance of the fabled Ã¢??flaming bombÃ¢?Â which I have been told is not a flaming bomb, but an inspectors mark. There is even one on the bottom of the wood base magazine. Any comments or input will be appreciated. Again, many thanks to the wonderful friends I was privileged to spend time with. Mike

03-01-2006, 12:29 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Glad to have had a small hand in the purchase of this Luger. It is a nifty gun. I would be real tempted to keep the takedown lever as it is because it is part of this Luger's history and it is a super example of the gunsmithing art that salvages a broken part in a professional manner without any attempt to create a fake. I have recorded two known batches of American Eagle Lugers with the Swiss cross marked barrel. The first series is the very earliest of AE Lugers from about serial #2020 to perhaps #2199 (I owned #2199 for a few years and I haven't encountered any higher numbers in that range so far). The next group, of which this one is included, is in the 8900 range, and I have recorded six examples in that lot. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-01-2006, 10:03 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Mike et al, I agree with the others, I would rather have the original repaired matching part, than a mismatch more standard TD lever. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

05-27-2019, 05:30 PM	#10
idler User Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	swiss cross I have a swiss cross marking on my 1900 ae commercial sn. 8940.

02-28-2006, 10:49 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Mike, Nice honest looking AE... You might want to contact Tom Heller (aka LugerDoc) about a take-down lever. The one on your piece is most unusual and probably not factory issued...

02-28-2006, 11:14 PM	#3
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Pete, Sorry I left you out the of the thanks. It was a pleasure meeting you. I forgot to mention the take-down lever. It is the original and someone did a masterful repair job. If you take a close look, it has been pinned and welded. I agree that a number match replacment would be great, but that is the original. Mike

02-28-2006, 11:35 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Mike, Was the original checkered "knob" on the TD lever ground and beveled down...? Quite a repair job... Another option would be to take the "knob" off of another TD lever and silver braze it to your # 14 piece... Maybe this is something member PoliceLuger (aka Howard Collins) can do for you...he does gunsmithing in his retirement...

03-01-2006, 04:22 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Mike emailed me after he got back with this 1900AE, and we discussed the Swiss cross. He asked me to post my comments to him on the forum. "The Swiss cross stamp shows up on model 1900 barrels sporadically, in ranges including 315-513 (Commercial and Swiss Commercial), 2021-2199 (American Eagle), and 8935-8977 (American Eagle). Data within those ranges (and at their extremes) is sporadic, so they may or may not be continuous; may have other models within the ranges; and may extend beyond those numbers. "The reason for the markings on non-Swiss military guns is unknown, but I have what I believe to be a reasonable WAG. "The original 2,000-gun Swiss military order, which fixed the design of the model 1900 production Parabellum, was made in May, 1900. Production began shortly thereafter--I haven't been able to determine a firm date for the official beginning of Luger production. The first of the guns was delivered to Switzerland in early 1901; the contract was completed in early 1903, so it took two years for DWM to manufacture these 2,000 pistols. "Swiss military Parabellums have a cross-over-letter in a small square cartouche on the left receiver. This is the mark of the Swiss official (usually a Col. Vogelsgang) present at DWM to accept the completed pistol. These guns also have small Swiss crosses on various parts, in much the same places as the German army would later require inspectors to stamp their acceptance marks (see Erfurt P-08 for examples). I have enquired after these marks; consensus is that these crosses were probably Swiss-inspection parts acceptance stamps applied during manufacture. "I consider it likely that accepted parts were available for assembly into Swiss pistols during the entire 2-year period of the first Swiss military pistol contract. Model 1900 Commercial, Swiss Commercial, and American Eagle pistols were being made at the same time, likely in the same assembly areas (these pistols were not manufactured on assembly lines as we have come to understand the term). I think it likely that barrels were "borrowed" out of the Swiss-accepted barrel supply to complete assembly of three different batches of model 1900 commercial-series pistols." After I saw pictures of his pistol I was moved to take 1900AE #2104 out of the safe, and look closely at the Swiss cross on its barrel. On both guns the barrel cross looks like it may have halo, and other characteristics of having been stamped through the blue. This is cause for some serious misapprehension about my conclusion, and I repeat it here with much less confidence than when I emailed Mike. The topic of the Swiss cross on these model 1900 barrels is one in which I have been interested for some time, and I will appreciate knowledgable comments. All this, by the way, is not to take anything away from the presentation of Mike's 1900AE, which I think is a pretty cool Luger. I agree with Ron about the nature of the takedown lever, it is a very clever repair in the service of keeping one of these pistols in operating condition. --Dwight

03-01-2006, 11:42 PM	#8
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Many thanks to all for the kind words and great information. It is only thru a brotherhood such as this that we can gain and share such a wealth of knowledge. Please accept my sincere thanks. I mentioned earlier that the weekend was special. The gun show and military show was special indeed, but the Saturday night at the hotel evolved into a very special evening. My friend, Tom and I were privileged to be seated at the same table as a World War II US fighter pilot and a German Luftwaffe pilot. The two pilots were meeting for a reunion. A special reunion indeed, as the German pilot had been shot down some 60 plus years earlier by the US pilot. The night was filled was stories and laughter. Tom and I could not believe what we were privileged to. Later on, Tom learned that the US pilot was actually his commanding officer in 1969 in Viet Nam. We were later joined by the famous Flying Tiger fighter Ace Tex Hill. That alone was a special pleasure. It was a night I will not soon forget. Thanks again, Mike

03-02-2006, 12:41 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	cool, very cool... No, with these guys in attendence & tow, I would buy a flying pig if they told me she was a luger Looks like something to keep ed