A U marked Luger

EdinFla · 10-12-2019, 03:06 PM

Hi all.
I posted this on Jan Still's site and it sorta petered out. I thought that I might get some new blood here to comment on this pistol.

Just picked this up. Sorta odd markings so I thought it would be worth a little research. The finish is sorta matte, parkerized perhaps.

Serial is 4006. No letter following. All marked parts match.
4 Digits are on the front of the frame and on the bottom of the barrel and on the left side of slide
2 Digits on the side plate (marked twice, side and bottom), take down lever, safety bar, safety, trigger, center and rear toggle, trigger bar, Mag release. I did not take it to pieces so I may have missed something.

The toggle has no makers mark (though it has the 2 digit serial). Barrel has an eagle on the right side and also an eagle with the numbers "63" on the left side, near the breech at the 10 oclock position. This is very light, the "3" could be something else. There is an eagle stamped on the side of the front toggle. Just forward of the SN on the slide is a stamp of what appears to be a sunburst.

On the top of the slide, where you would expect a date is a "G" and above that, an elongated "U" surmounted with an umlaut.

The grips are plastic, someone at the show said "Russian". The mag, while not matching, is numbered 4026, 20 away from the SN of the gun. Also the mag has "2/1001" stamped on it.

There is a numeral "4" in white ink on the right side of the receiver.

I am posting some pictures. If there is anything else that would help identify it please yell.

I am posting it here because of the "G".

From my poking around on the Interwebs, it seems that Lugers marked "Ub" were used for various internal applications in the Mauser factory. Some were used for pressure testing, some for accuracy testing (this one seems odd to me) and some, I suspect, as bench samples to show correct fit.

The one I have is marked just "U", I have seen no other examples like it. The parts are finished and, as I have said, all matching (n.b. the firing pin marked but does not match).

The barrel is pretty darn pristine, not the appearance of something that was fired a lot.

I am interested in your thoughts and pardon me if you have seen this on the other board.

Some related threads:
https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...505-An-odd-one
https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...-A-Ub-markings
https://1919a4.com/showthread.php?44...ELY-rare-Luger

Vlim · 10-12-2019, 04:01 PM

It's basically a GDR (East Germany) rework. The grips are typical 'VoPo' grips and the pistol has a GDR district marking (starburst type).

The Ü generally refers to "Übung" or practice. Somewhere along the line, this pistol became a practice pistol. Practice for or by whom will be difficult to determine.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-12-2019, 05:34 PM

On the top of the slide, where you would expect a date is a "G" This IS the date. 1935. "G" is the Mauser code for 1935.

Also the mag has "2/1001" stamped on it. An East German magazine.

EdinFla · 10-13-2019, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

It's basically a GDR (East Germany) rework. The grips are typical 'VoPo' grips and the pistol has a GDR district marking (starburst type).

The Ü generally refers to "Übung" or practice. Somewhere along the line, this pistol became a practice pistol. Practice for or by whom will be difficult to determine.

Hi and thanks.

It seems that there is an "X" mark which I understand indicated Russian capture. Is that so? As you can see, the serial numbers appear to be consistent in size and typeface. Also, there are no traces of acceptance or proof marks anywhere but on the barrel.

Vlim · 10-13-2019, 01:05 PM

Thats pretty consistent with VoPo guns.

ithacaartist · 10-13-2019, 02:40 PM

Maybe I'm picking a nit... My take is that there is a difference between "marked with an X" and a pistol that's had its original serial numbers or proofs crudely obliterated by Xs. Unit markings on early pistols were canceled in the same way, and IIRC, Russian-captured Lugers that made their way into East German police service could sometimes have had original markings/numbers negated in other ways, and sometimes not at all? An X provides a clue, certainly, but its location and deduced purpose are as important clues as the grips, accompanying magazine, finish, commercial side plate, and replaced barrel.

EdinFla · 10-13-2019, 08:21 PM

I saw a suggestion during my poking around, that an "X" on the frame, unassociated with a number was indicative of Soviet capture of the piece . Is that wrong?

There are no other instances of X's on this pistol.

ETA: What is meant by the term "rework"?

Vlim · 10-14-2019, 07:42 AM

Just after the war ended, an improvised workshop was set up in Soviet controlled German territory.

Captured and collected guns were inspected, repaired and packed up for storage. Broken, worn or missing parts were replaced with cannibalized parts where needed.

EdinFla · 10-14-2019, 08:40 AM

Sorta like "rehabilitated".

That explains the non-mauser marked toggle.

Interesting.

mrerick · 10-14-2019, 10:21 AM

If you look carefully, and use calipers to measure the areas, you'll see the slight grind marks and bevel in the areas of the frame and receiver where numbers were removed. The numbering dies used by Mauser on "G" date pistols I've seen have a different typeface.

The "X" looks like a multi-strike on the front of the frame, an unusual place for it.

This could well have been a training piece used when helping educate the gunsmiths that reworked your pistol.

Separately, you might want a copy of our FAQ document.
]
http://forum.lugerforum.com/faq.php

EdinFla · 10-16-2019, 07:48 PM

Got it. Thing is every sn matches. You think that they were all ground off and restamped? This is an odd duck.

mrerick · 10-16-2019, 09:55 PM

Yes.

10-12-2019, 03:06 PM	#1
EdinFla Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Florida Posts: 20 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	A U marked Luger Hi all. I posted this on Jan Still's site and it sorta petered out. I thought that I might get some new blood here to comment on this pistol. Just picked this up. Sorta odd markings so I thought it would be worth a little research. The finish is sorta matte, parkerized perhaps. Serial is 4006. No letter following. All marked parts match. 4 Digits are on the front of the frame and on the bottom of the barrel and on the left side of slide 2 Digits on the side plate (marked twice, side and bottom), take down lever, safety bar, safety, trigger, center and rear toggle, trigger bar, Mag release. I did not take it to pieces so I may have missed something. The toggle has no makers mark (though it has the 2 digit serial). Barrel has an eagle on the right side and also an eagle with the numbers "63" on the left side, near the breech at the 10 oclock position. This is very light, the "3" could be something else. There is an eagle stamped on the side of the front toggle. Just forward of the SN on the slide is a stamp of what appears to be a sunburst. On the top of the slide, where you would expect a date is a "G" and above that, an elongated "U" surmounted with an umlaut. The grips are plastic, someone at the show said "Russian". The mag, while not matching, is numbered 4026, 20 away from the SN of the gun. Also the mag has "2/1001" stamped on it. There is a numeral "4" in white ink on the right side of the receiver. I am posting some pictures. If there is anything else that would help identify it please yell. I am posting it here because of the "G". From my poking around on the Interwebs, it seems that Lugers marked "Ub" were used for various internal applications in the Mauser factory. Some were used for pressure testing, some for accuracy testing (this one seems odd to me) and some, I suspect, as bench samples to show correct fit. The one I have is marked just "U", I have seen no other examples like it. The parts are finished and, as I have said, all matching (n.b. the firing pin marked but does not match). The barrel is pretty darn pristine, not the appearance of something that was fired a lot. I am interested in your thoughts and pardon me if you have seen this on the other board. Some related threads: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...505-An-odd-one https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...-A-Ub-markings https://1919a4.com/showthread.php?44...ELY-rare-Luger Attached Thumbnails

10-12-2019, 05:34 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	On the top of the slide, where you would expect a date is a "G" This IS the date. 1935. "G" is the Mauser code for 1935. Also the mag has "2/1001" stamped on it. An East German magazine. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-13-2019, 02:40 PM	#6
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Maybe I'm picking a nit... My take is that there is a difference between "marked with an X" and a pistol that's had its original serial numbers or proofs crudely obliterated by Xs. Unit markings on early pistols were canceled in the same way, and IIRC, Russian-captured Lugers that made their way into East German police service could sometimes have had original markings/numbers negated in other ways, and sometimes not at all? An X provides a clue, certainly, but its location and deduced purpose are as important clues as the grips, accompanying magazine, finish, commercial side plate, and replaced barrel. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

10-14-2019, 10:21 AM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	If you look carefully, and use calipers to measure the areas, you'll see the slight grind marks and bevel in the areas of the frame and receiver where numbers were removed. The numbering dies used by Mauser on "G" date pistols I've seen have a different typeface. The "X" looks like a multi-strike on the front of the frame, an unusual place for it. This could well have been a training piece used when helping educate the gunsmiths that reworked your pistol. Separately, you might want a copy of our FAQ document. ] http://forum.lugerforum.com/faq.php __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-16-2019, 09:55 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Yes. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-12-2019, 04:01 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	It's basically a GDR (East Germany) rework. The grips are typical 'VoPo' grips and the pistol has a GDR district marking (starburst type). The Ü generally refers to "Übung" or practice. Somewhere along the line, this pistol became a practice pistol. Practice for or by whom will be difficult to determine.

10-13-2019, 01:05 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Thats pretty consistent with VoPo guns.

10-13-2019, 08:21 PM	#7
EdinFla Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Florida Posts: 20 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	I saw a suggestion during my poking around, that an "X" on the frame, unassociated with a number was indicative of Soviet capture of the piece . Is that wrong? There are no other instances of X's on this pistol. ETA: What is meant by the term "rework"?

10-14-2019, 07:42 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Just after the war ended, an improvised workshop was set up in Soviet controlled German territory. Captured and collected guns were inspected, repaired and packed up for storage. Broken, worn or missing parts were replaced with cannibalized parts where needed.

10-14-2019, 08:40 AM	#9
EdinFla Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Florida Posts: 20 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	Sorta like "rehabilitated". That explains the non-mauser marked toggle. Interesting.

10-16-2019, 07:48 PM	#11
EdinFla Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Florida Posts: 20 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	Got it. Thing is every sn matches. You think that they were all ground off and restamped? This is an odd duck.