Erfurt/DWM Parts Luger Project

[lugerholsterrepair]

The East Germans did the Luger no favors. It's ugly. Those who want to collect ugly defaced Luger's are welcome to them. More for them, none for me.

[Thor]

It is a parts Luger from Erfurt frame, DWM toggle, no collector value at the start IMO

[Vlim]

Sorry Ted, you are wrong here. But I have explained it already, no need to go through this discussion again.

Next time someone asks you to redo a VoPo, send me a message. I'd be happy to offer advice on whether or not to redo it.

[lugerholsterrepair]

How do I say this delicately to everyone..friends, members, fellow mods? As a craftsman artist and presevationist ,the only person I have ever consulted with about advice on "whether or not to redo it" is my client who is willing and able to pay for it. Granted I make my meager living bowing to the wishes of my patrons but channeling permission to restore a precious piece of history through a third party is pompous on the 3rd party's part. Quite frankly, it is no one's business but mine. I don't need any 3rd party advice and I am willing to bet, neither does Ted.

[Vlim]

And that is exactly the way history gets destroyed every time.

[Kiwi]

Are you equating Ted and Jerry with the Taliban and ISIS?
There are attempting to restore it to how it looked when new, not mindless destruction.

There are a very few historical items in (almost) perfect condition, I agree they should not be touched.

But an ugly mess - just because some Totalitarian government has refurbished does not fall into that context IMHO.

Thor, Jerry, and G.T. are my heroes

[Vlim]

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate their craftsmanship, but at the same time I strongly believe some items should not be touched.

Another example is the 'remodification' of Norwegian P08 holsters. The Norwegian army captured large numbers of German P08 holsters and modified them by installing belt hangers that allowed them to use the holsters with US GI style belts.

This modification was done by the Norwegian army and is part of the holster's history. When you remove the GI belt hanger and re-install German Style belt loops, you are left with a holster that is neither German nor Norwegian. And in my opinion worthless.

But if you like 'pretty' guns without historical value, be my guest. But don't mistake it for a restoration. Also, educate yourself before touching an item.

Part of being a good and professional restorer is the ability to say 'no' to projects that uneducated clients offer.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Some things are so horribly defaced they cannot be properly restored and Norwegian P08 holsters are a prime example. The toe cut off the end of a Luger holster or a "cowboy cut" of the front to draw the pistol easily are some more. These are layers of history destruction. The Norwegian's destroyed history by putting on an ugly GI belt hanger just as the East Germans destroyed history by "refurbishing" pistols. My preference is to not look at ugly modifications no matter who did them. For that matter, I don't even like the ugly holsters they started making after 1945.



"Part of being a good and professional restorer is the ability to say 'no' to projects that uneducated clients offer." Pompous attitude.

You are not any kind of professional restorer. I don't work in a government job with a guaranteed income. And I don't consider any of my clients ignorant. History is a fluid in suspension. I have been known to give advice from time to time but if a man owns something and wants to put it in a shredder that's his business.

[spangy]

I think we all can agree that every Luger has a story it could tell if only it could talk.

Sometimes we get lucky and there are transfer papers from a GI 'take home souvenir' spelling out the who, where and why. Other times we rely on proof marks, patina, variations or even simply the date stamped on the gun itself. Still others have history woven into them such as Russian captures (x) and the Volkspolizei VoPo. When we look at a VoPo era Luger we immediately know the later part of its history.

This isn't about whether Thor is an excellent craftsman - we all KNOW he is.

Nor is it about the right of a man to do with what he will to his own property - of course you can.

This is about HISTORY and how a gun came to be what so many of you find to be ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Vlim and myself can see the beauty in the VoPo BECAUSE of its deep history.

This isn't about German Democratic Republics history alone but the entire German history to date starting on that fateful day when Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb member of Young Bosnia aka 'the Black Hand', sought an end to Austro-Hungarian rule in Bosnia and Herzegovina by assassinating Archduke Franz Ferdinand Carl Ludwig Joseph Maria of Austria the heir presumptive to the throne of Austria-Hungary on the 28th June 1914. Aka 'the gunshot heard around the world'.

What followed was the 1st world war where Germany came to the aid of its Austrian brothers AS WAS EXPECTED. France and Britain saw its opportunity to remove Germany from its economic and technilogical throne by declaring war on Germany.

The end result was the treaty of Versailles signed in June 1919 at the Palace of Versailles in Paris. The armistice was signed on 11 November 1918, ended the actual fighting.

This treaty signed by what came to be known as 'the November criminals' stuck in the craw of Germans who thought that the war was still winnable and that the treaty of Versailles was a political 'sell out' that would and did hobble Germanys industrial might.

This resentment festered most specificaly in a young soldier in this 1st world war named Adolf Hitler. The 2nd world war blossomed out of the 1st world war. Had the treaty of Versailles been an even handed docuement more in keeping with fair play instead of a docuement intending to destroy Germany forever the 2nd world war most likely would never have happened. Nor would the Paris Peace Treaties (French: Traités de Paris) signed on 10 February 1947 following the end of World War II in 1945.

Thus East Germany, officially the German Democratic Republic came into being - the remmnants of a country sliced in 2 by politicians.

The VoPo Luger is an important historic reminder of a specific time in Germany's history and as such should IMO be left alone.

This is only my opinion and Vlim's as well I asume but thats all it is and all it was meant to be ... this bickering has nothing to do with Thors restoration capabilities AT ALL.

I only wish that Vlims knowledge and insight into Luger history and its preservation was as respected as Thors ability to preserve the physical.

[sheepherder]

I agree that any Luger with historical provenance should be left alone. I do not agree that Thor's works are 'restorations'. They are not. They are beautification projects. Fantasy Lugers, if you like. No production P08 ever looked as good as Thor's works. I doubt if any commercial Lugers looked as good.

But Thor's not taking the guns back to what they were when they left the factory. They're better.

Some don't want better. Some want historical perspective. Following the life of the individual weapon. Maybe it was a bring-back and it's history stopped there. Maybe it went on to become a second-string backup to other more modern arms. Maybe it went to a desperate Mediterranean country who took any arms it could get.

I think it all depends on the present owner. I have several refinished Lugers. And I have two in their original 'unrestored' condition. I like them all.

[Brittscr]

Can anyone help with info on my late gpas gun? He was highly decorated WWII vet. Story he told me was always the same , he went head to head with German officer and he won.. he took this as keepsake. Would love any credible info on this piece as I am very limited knowledge-wise regarding Lugers. Thanks in advance !

[lugerholsterrepair]

Chad, You really should start your OWN thread about your Grandfathers pistol.

[Brittscr]

Ok Jerry I will do that, sorry I’m new to forums etc

[lugerholsterrepair]

Chad, it just would focus on your pistol better. Adding to an old post confuses and obscures. Easy to do too.

[Brittscr]

Thanks Jerry i created new post in the general discussion category, thank you for the guidance ����