Relative collectability of WWI pistols

[Stu]

I'm interested in buying a WWI era military issue. In the past I've enjoyed shooter grade Lugers, but would like to acquire something 'nicer'.

On a limited budget, so I'm being a bit hesitant, and could use some advice.

Assuming guns are in equal condition, from the perspective of value, does a 1920 property mark add / detract / not affect value ?

I've seen a couple, so marked, that appear to have been refinished in the inter war years, I'm assuming this detracts from value ?

Thanks for any input.

[beachbaker]

Stu, in general any mark added after original manufacture such as a property mark (1920) will lower the price of a WWI gun. Additionally, a refinish is a bigger hit on value which certainly places the afore mentioned pistol a shooter and a non-collectible. The problem with these guns is they can be hard to move out if the day arrives to part company. Curt

[G.T.]

Anything done to the guns after they leave the factory, can and will, for the most part, reduce the value.. There are exceptions to this, but not many... The key word, and you have already stated it, is relativity? Objective or subjective, comes into play... For instance, you have a DWM 1914 Luger, an imperial collector would look at that as a pure form of Luger, where'as the collector who likes Weimar era guns would prefer the 1920 stamp as it fits his collecting nitch... Refinish is also a consideration, but, when and by whom is also a factor?... And, on top of all that, condition trumps all! Meaning to be collectible, regardless of the markings, the condition of a common variation needs to be pristine to have any carry over speculative value, I call blue sky... All I can say for sure, is stick your money away for that once in a lifetime Luger that shows up sometime when you are really broke, and let your knowledge/skill and opportunity meet, which is the definition of luck.... best, til....lat'r....GT

[Stu]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Anything done to the guns after they leave the factory, can and will, for the most part, reduce the value.. There are exceptions to this, but not many... The key word, and you have already stated it, is relativity? Objective or subjective, comes into play... For instance, you have a DWM 1914 Luger, an imperial collector would look at that as a pure form of Luger, where'as the collector who likes Weimar era guns would prefer the 1920 stamp as it fits his collecting nitch... Refinish is also a consideration, but, when and by whom is also a factor?... And, on top of all that, condition trumps all! Meaning to be collectible, regardless of the markings, the condition of a common variation needs to be pristine to have any carry over speculative value, I call blue sky... All I can say for sure, is stick your money away for that once in a lifetime Luger that shows up sometime when you are really broke, and let your knowledge/skill and opportunity meet, which is the definition of luck.... best, til....lat'r....GT

Thanks Curt & GT. I rather suspected that. I'm in the buy "the best I can afford" scenario.

Criteria being matching numbers, (less grips and magazine), original finish, (not too fussed if it's worn), no significant pitting / damage, no grips with chips, only very discrete import marks, if any.

The kicker is I'm looking for a pre stock lug, hold open installed, military dated 1911 - 1913. I suspect my wants outstrip my budget !

[mrerick]

Collectors seek a gun as close to it's original factory state as possible. That means all matching, original finish, mechanically fine. Once finish is below 80% I consider it no longer collectible unless it's something particularly rare.

"Restoration" doesn't restore collectability either. A "pretty" Luger isn't necessarily a collectible one.

Note that "matching numbers" may not count if someone replaced parts with ones that happened to have the same numbering. It's the original state of the gun, not just that numbers have been forced to match.

Processing by Russians or East Germans may make it collectible to someone that is focused on Russian Captured guns, but there are not many people focused on that.

Import marks render it not collectible for many of us. It's a shooter at that point with a few narrow exceptions especially if the marks are particularly visible. Same thing with deactivation.

Your budget needs to be $1500 or more at this point unless you happen upon a particular deal - but beware of "deals". Most collectors and dealers know what they have.

That said, I once bought a DWM Luger that contained an original Krieghoff magazine. Sale of that magazine paid for a significant portion of the pistol's price and a replacement proper magazine.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Collectors seek a gun as close to it's original factory state as possible. That means all matching, original finish, mechanically fine. Once finish is below 80% I consider it no longer collectible unless it's something particularly rare.

"Restoration" doesn't restore collectability either. A "pretty" Luger isn't necessarily a collectible one.

Note that "matching numbers" may not count if someone replaced parts with ones that happened to have the same numbering. It's the original state of the gun, not just that numbers have been forced to match.

Processing by Russians or East Germans may make it collectible to someone that is focused on Russian Captured guns, but there are not many people focused on that.

Import marks render it not collectible for many of us. It's a shooter at that point with a few narrow exceptions especially if the marks are particularly visible. Same thing with deactivation.

Your budget needs to be $1500 or more at this point unless you happen upon a particular deal - but beware of "deals". Most collectors and dealers know what they have.

That said, I once bought a DWM Luger that contained an original Krieghoff magazine. Sale of that magazine paid for a significant portion of the pistol's price and a replacement proper magazine.

I appreciate your points about collectability. Force matching's a real challenge, sometimes you just can't tell.

I'm not in the 'real' collectable market, out of my reach, but just want to find a good honest gun. Budget wise I'm in the 1500-2500 range, but at that point, in the current market, determining if a gun is fair value isn't always easy. Right now, just finding ones for sale is proving a challenge !

[Vlim]

It all depends on your views.

To me a 1920 mark on a WW1 era gun is a bonus, not a devaluation. I like to be able to follow and document the 'life' of a gun when possible. Part of the fun. A nice example is a first issue P08 that can be traced throughout 20th Century German military service from 1909 to the 1970s.

Import markings can be applied in a sublte way or by bubba with a blunt chisel. The way they are marked has impact on the desirability. You see this with mandatory reproofing in certain EU countries as well. Some are decent, some afwul but it also depends on the rarity of the gun. I noticed that nowadays certain EU auction houses like will have guns reproofed prior to auction in order to increase the audience. Not ideal.

But it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent straightforward WW1 example.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Vlim

It all depends on your views.

To me a 1920 mark on a WW1 era gun is a bonus, not a devaluation. I like to be able to follow and document the 'life' of a gun when possible. Part of the fun. A nice example is a first issue P08 that can be traced throughout 20th Century German military service from 1909 to the 1970s.

Import markings can be applied in a sublte way or by bubba with a blunt chisel. The way they are marked has impact on the desirability. You see this with mandatory reproofing in certain EU countries as well. Some are decent, some afwul but it also depends on the rarity of the gun. I noticed that nowadays certain EU auction houses like will have guns reproofed prior to auction in order to increase the audience. Not ideal.

But it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent straightforward WW1 example.

I agree that a 1920 adds to the history for me personally, as I can only really afford 1 gun, but I also understand the 'as 'original' as possible. I keep looking at a 1913 / 1920 which meets my criteria, but, I suspect it was refinished at some point, likely pre WWII. Top of my budget though, and I suspect a bit overpriced.

[cirelaw]

http://www.pals.org.uk/ir169_e1.htm This traces the history 169 Baden Greatly enhance the value~ I purchased from George Anderson who provided a written history~

[Stu]

Magnificent !