Import mark

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Yakman

If it were illegal to remove an import mark, it would seem one could not remove and replace a barrel, for example, if the mark were placed on that barrel. Jack

Excellent point. I have a post-WW1 rework of an Erfurt military pistol. The date was scrubbed and a new .30 caliber barrel installed. Other than the barrel, it's all matching. CAI put their import markings on the underside of the barrel.

[tomaustin]

yak...my view is in the eye of the person making the decision to change the history of the weapon to gain some advantage for the tale to be told to others about their rifle or handgun...

removing an import mark to enhance your story is clearly wrong.....

but, a shot-out barrel on an otherwise serviceable weapon would seem to be an acceptable servicing of the rifle or handgun....

just save the original barrel as part of that weapon's history..

enjoy your shooting...........

[Norme]

I know of one instance where an importers mark actually adds considerable value. I'm referring to the Navy Lugers imported into the US from Ireland in 1991. Most of the 20 or so guns are in poor shape with mis-matched parts, but they are marked by Bill Edwards, the importer, on the top of the right frame rail, concealed when the gun is assembled.
They were smuggled into Ireland by U boat in 1914 just prior to the Easter Uprising, an effort by Germany to foment trouble and tie down British troops that would otherwise be in France.
They are much desired by Luger collectors of Irish descent, and I'd dearly like to own one myself even though I'm British by birth.
Norm

[Yakman]

Norme, I can think of a couple other importers whose marks have increased the value of the pistols they appear on, AF Stoeger and Ambercrombie & Fitch.

I say that jokingly but have often wondered what's so special about those importers. Stoeger, for example, imported SAFE/LOADED marked pistols with no other distinguishing marks. I wonder why convention makes those with Stoeger's import mark more desirable and consequently more valuable. Collectors also like Pacific Arms' identifying marks, and their guns are mostly, if not all, reworks, what I'd call the bottom of the barrel for collectables. They derive their increased value and collectability solely from Pacific Arms identifying marks, not the pistols themselves.

I'm guilty of following this convention, too.

Jack

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Excellent point. I have a post-WW1 rework of an Erfurt military pistol. The date was scrubbed and a new .30 caliber barrel installed. Other than the barrel, it's all matching. CAI put their import markings on the underside of the barrel.

almost definitely barreled by Century overseas before importation - common practice with them if the work could be done cheaper in some foreign countries -

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

almost definitely barreled by Century overseas before importation - common practice with them if the work could be done cheaper in some foreign countries -

I disagree. The rework was done post-WW1 - 1920's - and sold somewhere in Europe as there is no "Germany" stamp. The barrel is far from having been recently installed. The poorly stamped "M23" suggests that it was imported from Finland where it may have been sold commercially.

[schutzen-jager]

used barrel installed before import - Finns were famous for cannibalizing captured foreign pistols + rifles for reissue - you neglected to mention connection wit Finland in your post -post WWI when Finland became independent they acquired large quantities of German pistols including c96 mausers + p08 lugers - in 1923 they standardized them all to 7.65 luger [ broomhandles included ] - Century imported them in late 80's + early 90's - the extremely rare ones are the P08's purchased direct from DWM in 1923 in 7.65 -

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

used barrel installed before import - Finns were famous for cannibalizing captured foreign pistols + rifles for reissue - you neglected to mention connection wit Finland in your post -post WWI when Finland became independent they acquired large quantities of German pistols including c96 mausers + p08 lugers - in 1923 they standardized them all to 7.65 luger [ broomhandles included ] - Century imported them in late 80's + early 90's - the extremely rare ones are the P08's purchased direct from DWM in 1923 in 7.65 -

Why would I mention Finland in my original post? They had nothing to do with the import marking on the barrel and the discussion was about import stamps.

Exactly on what "facts" are you basing your conclusions? You're making a lot of claims without proof. There's no way to prove who replaced the barrel or when but thousands of Lugers were re-barreled to 30 caliber with new barrels in the 1920's for sale on the commercial market and that is the most likely explanation.

[cirelaw]

Do they desinate where the import mark should be placed? What about placing it on a part that can be replaced~ Ie Barrel?

[cirelaw]

Are we to assume that all luger without import stamps were imported to the US, including GI bring backs don't apply to the law changed!

[cirelaw]

Found It~~https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ation-overview

[schutzen-jager]

ATF regulations have changed at least 3 times since 1968 as to placement , size , + content - - like the one shown in picture does not have country of origin which is now a current requirement -
i believe this to be the most current
- Title 27 CFR Part 478.92 requires that within 15 days after release from Customs custody, each firearm imported shall be identified by engraving or casting the serial number on the frame or receiver; in addition, the following (1) model, (2) caliber or gauge, (3) name of manufacturer an country where manufactured and (4) the name, city and State of the importer shall be engraved, cast or stamped on the frame, receiver or barrel. must be to a minimum depth of.003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch Name of Manufacturer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide - ]

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Why would I mention Finland in my original post? They had nothing to do with the import marking on the barrel and the discussion was about import stamps.

Exactly on what "facts" are you basing your conclusions? You're making a lot of claims without proof. There's no way to prove who replaced the barrel or when but thousands of Lugers were re-barreled to 30 caliber with new barrels in the 1920's for sale on the commercial market and that is the most likely explanation.

try doing a little research before making definitive statements - try the books by Walter , Hoffschmidt , Berger + others - also search the 1988 + later catalogs published by Century arms - the 1920's barrels were manufactured in Finland by both Sako + Tikka - the small CAI above the faint Finn markings prove that barrel was replaced before import + size + content of import marks are consistant with late 80's early 90's import -

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Are we to assume that all luger without import stamps were imported to the US, including GI bring backs don't apply to the law changed!

import stamps not required on U.S. imports prior to December 1968 -

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

the 1920's barrels were manufactured in Finland by both Sako + Tikka - the small CAI above the faint Finn markings prove that barrel was replaced before import

First you claim it was "almost definitely" replaced by CAI before import.

Then you claim it was a used barrel when replaced. If the Finns replaced the barrel, it would have been new.

Skipping your uncalled for insults about research, of course the barrel was replaced before import... but WHEN? It's an Imperial Erfurt Luger from 1917 or 1918.

"Faint Finn markings"? WHERE, exactly? No such thing on that barrel. It has only the marks put there by CAI. In the 1990's, CAI imported Lugers from many places with Finland being but one country they came from.

As the Finns didn't adopt the Luger in 30 caliber before 1923 and Germany was prohibited from providing 9mm Lugers at that time - the reason Finland went with 30 caliber to begin with - why is it more likely that the Finns did the re-barrel than the Germans? The CAI stamp is the ONLY about the pistol to even suggest it was ever in Finland.

[schutzen-jager]

First you claim it was "almost definitely" replaced by CAI before import.

Then you claim it was a used barrel when replaced. If the Finns replaced the barrel, it would have been new. ]

my first post was made before you stated the Finn connection + the stampings below the CAI mark were not clear in your picture at all - the Finns were notorious for salvaging parts to recondition weapons + with out the clear Finn markings this would be totally possible - the m23 marking makes it a Finn manufactured bbl. + stamping appears much different then CAI marking above it - my so called insult is much less cutting then you basically calling me a liar back 11/2/20 in post about Luger stocks with ground lugs in old ATF regulations - the 7.65 was standardized in 1923 by Finns -the m23 below CAi on bbl. is Finn arsenal designation - the Finns were using large quantities of Lugers + Mausers in military service as soon as they declared independence from Russia prior to 1923

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

my first post was made before you stated the Finn connection + the stampings below the CAI mark were not clear in your picture at all -

The stampings in the picture are perfectly clear and if you had actually looked at them you'd have seen the M.23 stamp.

the Finns were notorious for salvaging parts to recondition weapons + with out the clear Finn markings this would be totally possible - the m23 marking makes it a Finn manufactured bbl. + stamping appears much different then CAI marking above it

ALL the markings are the identical size and font. Only the depth of the strikes are different. ALL of them were put there by CAI; NOT the Finns.

- my so called insult is much less cutting then you basically calling me a liar back 11/2/20 in post about Luger stocks with ground lugs in old ATF regulations -

So this is more about your hurt feelings a year and a half ago than anything else? I don't recall the discussion so maybe you could link it.

the 7.65 was standardized in 1923 by Finns -the m23 below CAi on bbl. is Finn arsenal designation -

Again, ALL the markings were put there by CAI. Or, maybe you can explain why the Finns would have stamped "GER" between M.23 and 7.65 PARA. Or the need to put 7.65 PARA there when that's the only cartridge the M.23 used. Furthermore, if G&S and Walter are to be believed, the Finns would have used M/23 and not M.23. Of course if you can provide a reference that the Finns marked their barrels with anything other than the maker's mark or left them bare, I'd like to see it.

[Mac Cat]

Nobody is calling anyone a "liar".
We are here to fine the truth in a complicated history.
Please keep it civil.

[cirelaw]

Call me old fashion but I've always only considered a virgin! Wives exception, of course`