Nice Vickers...

Pete Ebbink · 07-17-2004, 01:45 PM

...the folks at FGS have just recently posted a nice Vicker's luger for sale.

One does not see one in such nice condition too often !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Vlim · 07-17-2004, 03:21 PM

Nice one indeed,

although their description is a bit off.
This one has been arsenal refinished at least once.

Pete Ebbink · 07-17-2004, 05:10 PM

Hi Gerben,

Can you let us know why you think it might be a refinish ? I could not really determine from the 1 photo posted on the FGS site...

Either way...do you feel an arsenal refinish hurts the value of a Vicker's luger...?

I think the wording on the sales add is a bit "silent" on the subject.

" DUTCH VICKERS S/N 72xx VERY NICE FINISH, EXCELLENT GRIPS, NICE BORE, AND ORIGINAL DUTCH MAGAZINE. THIS IS A VERY NICE DUTCH VICKERS......3750.00 "

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Vlim · 07-19-2004, 10:54 AM

Hi Pete,

Two things:
-The blueing on the takedown lever.

For some unknow reason the takedown levers were blued with the gun (probably somebody too lazy to take them off

during reblueing. My 1913 frame shows the same traces of blue on the lever and almost identical wear or bad quality reblue on the side plate.

-The fitting of the brass sideplate.

Brass siteplates were introduced pretty late in 1939 and required removal of either struck-in unit marks or earlier brass trigger guard brass.
Removal of both required reblueing.

I do agree that it's a very nice Dutch vickers. Grips almost look too good.

I don't think arsenal refinish or repair (!) harms the value of a Dutch in a significant way. Use of non-matched Dutch parts on repairs will drop the price, but not to normal 'shooter' amounts.

I'd say original = 100%, arsenal rework = 90%, arsenal rework with mismatched parts = 50 - 70%.

Pete Ebbink · 07-19-2004, 08:20 PM

Hi Gerben,

I am not 100% convinced that the take-down lever is blued. I look carefully at the photo again and, IMHO, I think it might be poor lighting conditions showing the straw color in partial shadows...???

I thought/think this might be original finish as the Crown/W stamping on the left side of the receiver appears to have portions of the stamping "in the white"...but it is hard to tell from the quality of just the one photo on the web site...if reblued, I would think the stamping would have blue in all of its recesses.

The grips are immaculate ! I would ask the seller to show me the "GS" stampings on the inside sufaces...

It might also be possible the 1st. owner of this Vickers luger was an officer and so did not have the old-style unit marks added. Then when the gun was re-issued at a later date (after 1938 as you say), the brass plate and unit markings were added...just speculation on my part...

I did see an averaged condtion Vickers 2 years ago at the Reno, NV gun show. It had been rebarreled with a date on the barrel, but it did not show any evidence of attachement/removal of any brass side plate in either typical location...asking price on that one was $ 2200 if I remember correctly...and it also had "GS" made grip panels but much more worn...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 07-20-2004, 01:57 AM

A bit of photo manipulation shows that the takedown lever appears to be strawed.

I admit to some curiosity about the grips. In my experience the Geweermakers School was not very consistent about stamping their work, if the grips are not GS stamped this would not necessarily mean they are not right. The serial number stamping--or lack of same--would be as telling.

The left receiver proof should be stamped 'under' the blue. The highlight effect here is most likely a lighting effect of the photograph.

Going by this single photograph, I opine that this may well be a straight-up piece. Pretty expensive, though...

--Dwight

Vlim · 07-20-2004, 04:18 PM

Hi,

The photo manipulation indeed makes me doubt whether the takedown lever is strawed or not, but it's difficult to say, as photo's of my takedown-lever with traces of blue also look like there's no blue present.

I do, however, stick to my believe that the frame has been reblued as result of re-issue. A photo of the front gripstrap and one of the frame's tail would be helpfull. Guns that had their original stamped unit marking removed often show signs of blued-over file marks just above the lanyard ring.

07-17-2004, 01:45 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Nice Vickers... ...the folks at FGS have just recently posted a nice Vicker's luger for sale. One does not see one in such nice condition too often ! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-17-2004, 03:21 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Nice one indeed, although their description is a bit off. This one has been arsenal refinished at least once.

07-17-2004, 05:10 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Gerben, Can you let us know why you think it might be a refinish ? I could not really determine from the 1 photo posted on the FGS site... Either way...do you feel an arsenal refinish hurts the value of a Vicker's luger...? I think the wording on the sales add is a bit "silent" on the subject. " DUTCH VICKERS S/N 72xx VERY NICE FINISH, EXCELLENT GRIPS, NICE BORE, AND ORIGINAL DUTCH MAGAZINE. THIS IS A VERY NICE DUTCH VICKERS......3750.00 " Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-19-2004, 10:54 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Pete, Two things: -The blueing on the takedown lever. For some unknow reason the takedown levers were blued with the gun (probably somebody too lazy to take them off during reblueing. My 1913 frame shows the same traces of blue on the lever and almost identical wear or bad quality reblue on the side plate. -The fitting of the brass sideplate. Brass siteplates were introduced pretty late in 1939 and required removal of either struck-in unit marks or earlier brass trigger guard brass. Removal of both required reblueing. I do agree that it's a very nice Dutch vickers. Grips almost look too good. I don't think arsenal refinish or repair (!) harms the value of a Dutch in a significant way. Use of non-matched Dutch parts on repairs will drop the price, but not to normal 'shooter' amounts. I'd say original = 100%, arsenal rework = 90%, arsenal rework with mismatched parts = 50 - 70%.

07-19-2004, 08:20 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Gerben, I am not 100% convinced that the take-down lever is blued. I look carefully at the photo again and, IMHO, I think it might be poor lighting conditions showing the straw color in partial shadows...??? I thought/think this might be original finish as the Crown/W stamping on the left side of the receiver appears to have portions of the stamping "in the white"...but it is hard to tell from the quality of just the one photo on the web site...if reblued, I would think the stamping would have blue in all of its recesses. The grips are immaculate ! I would ask the seller to show me the "GS" stampings on the inside sufaces... It might also be possible the 1st. owner of this Vickers luger was an officer and so did not have the old-style unit marks added. Then when the gun was re-issued at a later date (after 1938 as you say), the brass plate and unit markings were added...just speculation on my part... I did see an averaged condtion Vickers 2 years ago at the Reno, NV gun show. It had been rebarreled with a date on the barrel, but it did not show any evidence of attachement/removal of any brass side plate in either typical location...asking price on that one was $ 2200 if I remember correctly...and it also had "GS" made grip panels but much more worn... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-20-2004, 01:57 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	A bit of photo manipulation shows that the takedown lever appears to be strawed. I admit to some curiosity about the grips. In my experience the Geweermakers School was not very consistent about stamping their work, if the grips are not GS stamped this would not necessarily mean they are not right. The serial number stamping--or lack of same--would be as telling. The left receiver proof should be stamped 'under' the blue. The highlight effect here is most likely a lighting effect of the photograph. Going by this single photograph, I opine that this may well be a straight-up piece. Pretty expensive, though... --Dwight

07-20-2004, 04:18 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The photo manipulation indeed makes me doubt whether the takedown lever is strawed or not, but it's difficult to say, as photo's of my takedown-lever with traces of blue also look like there's no blue present. I do, however, stick to my believe that the frame has been reblued as result of re-issue. A photo of the front gripstrap and one of the frame's tail would be helpfull. Guns that had their original stamped unit marking removed often show signs of blued-over file marks just above the lanyard ring.