Howdy!

Franz · 05-05-2003, 10:48 PM

Hello,
I'm brand-new here. I have a Luger that was in my Grandfathers' collection and was promised to me when I was about 8 years old. I have had it now for about 25 years and just recently started to search for some backround on it. I have basically figured it to be a Krieghoff but that's where my research pretty much ends. The thing I can't find discussed anywhere is a stainless or chrome finish. All the ones I have seen have a blued finish. Any help would be appreciated.

drbuster · 05-05-2003, 11:43 PM

Dear Franz. This Krieghoff could be "in the white", that is, no finish at all. Several pistols of this type were made up just after WW2 ended from surviving parts. Need photos, if possible.

Franz · 05-06-2003, 12:46 AM

I'll try to load some pics tomorrow. Can I cut and paste or do the pics need a URL?

Lugers down under · 05-06-2003, 01:15 AM

Franz,
You will need a URL,
Use this one, it is self explanitary,
Murray

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/lfupload.html

Edward Tinker · 05-06-2003, 02:36 AM

Franz, it is always possible that someone chromed or nickled the gun. This was common just after the war, and many guns were nickled or "chromed" (few are probably chrome, but really nickle). I have one that appears to be nickled, that is actually not nickle, but shiney steel, John Martz liked to make them that way, it has a 4 inch bull barrel on it.

If you have problems posting, e-mail me,

Ed

Franz · 05-06-2003, 11:06 AM

Well...here are some photos.
Sorry for the poor quality.

John Sabato · 05-06-2003, 11:13 AM

Franz,

If you camera is capable of higher resolution, try a higher mode... and see if that improves your photography... A tripod or rest of some type also helps eliminate the shutter jitters...that may improve the focus if the camera is autofocus.

I have found that taking the photos outside on an overcast day is also helpful.

Just take your time... and the nice thing about digital photos is they only cost your time... if they don't turn out right, just try again until you are satisfied...

Franz · 05-06-2003, 11:15 AM

All I have is a cheapo webcam John...sorry.

John Sabato · 05-06-2003, 11:19 AM

Franz, even a web cam can take good photos... the conditions just have to be right... For instance, if you increase the resolution to 640x480 the images should be much better...

But do you have a scanner? You can take credible images just by laying the pistol on the glass and scanning it... If the image is too large to upload, let me know... and I will help reduce it to a reasonable size.

Edward Tinker · 05-06-2003, 12:57 PM

Franz, not bad pictures considering the el-cheap-o webcam,

John D. · 05-06-2003, 01:29 PM

Hi Franz,

What you have is a nice mid-series "S", that has been refinished. Issue dates were estimated to be in 1936 (production may have been in y/e 1935), and there are 3 "S" variations - your's being the middle of that range. Military serialized and issued Kriegs were blued, rather then chromed/nickel plated - except for the presentation Kriegs that were plated (gold/silver/platnium..) (these, of course, were not-military issued, and yours, unforunately - isn't one of those).

Also - I can't tell the type of material you have for grips??

Hope this helps, and all Kriegs are terrific!! Since it came from your Grand-dad, I'm sure it's special..!! Nice HK.!

Franz · 05-06-2003, 07:32 PM

Thanks John.
The grips are brown checkered plastic.
How do you suppose it was refinished? I was told that before and was wondering because seeing how the letters and such aren't worn down, how would the finish be removed and why?

John D. · 05-06-2003, 08:05 PM

Hi Franz..!

Brown checkered plastic grips are the correct grips, along with wood. There are two types - fine checkered RITZMANN Grips (which are a very dark brown and have very fine checkering), or a courser checkered, light brown plastic grip. My guess is you probably have the RITZMANN grips.

Anyway - a lot of Lugers were refinished, and I can tell yours was by the cannon, extractor, toggle, sideplate and other parts. You see, the edges on Kriegs are somewhat well-defined and "sharp" (with the exception of some of the post-war "parts" guns which may have been buffed/reblued given some parts were "in the white" or various shades of "blue"). Anyway - this is what appears to be a properly matched mid-S, rather then a parts Krieg. As well - even the small parts are plated, as you can see (take down, etc.) - and even on the parts Kriegs, those tended to be "silver" (un-strawed, still "in-the-white") or strawed (except the right-side of the mag release, which would be fire blued or straw, depending)..

However - one of the things I like about yours is that whoever did it - did not go "crazy" with the buffing wheel, as the stamps/proofs are still in VG shape, as you note. The give away for me was the edges having lost their original definition and "sharpness". As well, so has the toggle stamp lost a little "definition".

Anyway - to answer your other question - some saw rather hard service during the war - and they were "souveniers" rather then collection pieces - so it wasn't uncommon to see GI's have them plated/dipped/reblued to make them look better. There are quite a few such examples - and not only in Lugers, but P-38s, PPks, etc. So who actually had it refinished is anyones guess..???

For that, and being a Krieg collector - any Krieg is outstanding

But - I'm biased.. From a collectors standpoint, yes, it is not "original" - but to you, and many owners of re-finished Lugers - that lost value is more then made up by the sentimental attachment to the piece. As this was your Grand-dads, and you have such terrific memories from such a young age - I'm sure it is priceless to you - as it should be... In many ways - it's worth more then just another "original" Mid-S of collector value - for who can place a value on a grandson's/grandfathers relationship??

That's why I respect both values - the Krieg's and your's you have attached to it... In my mind - it makes it a terrific example - and worth hanging on to...

John D. · 05-06-2003, 08:34 PM

Oh - and By The Way.....

I was just reading down this thread after my last post - and I forgot to add in my first post:

Welcome to the Luger Forum!!!

Please continue to post in the Krieghoff Forum - as I kind'a like this one, especially well

Best to you Franz..!!!

Franz · 05-06-2003, 09:26 PM

Well I will try as much as possible to post often...I am currently getting ready to go back to school. I am going to take a culinary course and try to become Emeril

Being 40 though I'm afraid I will kinda stand out in a campus setting.
As for the sentimental value of the Luger...my Grandfather was the greatest and he had quite a gun and sword collection. When I was about 7 or 8 he promised me any gun I wanted out of his collection. My eyes were on that Luger ever since

I eventually also got a VERY old Blunderbuss type gun(I have NO clue as to it's origin), an 1884 Springfield rifle and an 1859 Sharps rifle.Too bad there was a rift between my Father and his sister and they had an ugly battle over ownership of the remaining collection. My Aunt ended up getting the rest

Oh well, at least I still have my Luger huh?
BTW, any recommendations on how to find some info on that Blunderbuss type gun?
Thanks alot for your help and I look forward to conversing with you in the future.
Jim

John D. · 05-06-2003, 09:56 PM

Hi Franz..!

Well - good luck going back to school - I hand it to you..!

Franz wrote:
"As for the sentimental value of the Luger...my Grandfather was the greatest and he had ...My eyes were on that Luger ever since...

And that's what it is all about - to be honest... From your first post, I thought as much. Good for you... As well, my Grandfather was sort of special to me as well, and he had me trap shooting at the age of 10. I still have the three shotguns.

As for the Blunderbuss you have, honestly - I can't help you out - so perhaps someone will chime in with their thoughts? In the meantime - please know you are most welcomed for the input and comments, no thanks necessary. It was my pleasure to help...

See you in the Forums, OK???

Best,

John

Pete Ebbink · 05-09-2003, 11:48 PM

Interesting that Franz' HK luger # 2141 is numbered after my S-code HK, serial # 2122; but Franz' luger has the earlier type B-2 toggle die whereas mine is an earlier-numbered gun that has the later type C die used...

Really sounds like the folks at HK did not put guns together in any numerical sequence at all.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 05-10-2003, 03:39 AM

Franz!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Being 40 though I'm afraid I will kinda stand out in a campus setting.<hr /></blockquote>Good for you, and who cares! My wife works at a University and actually the campus age has gotten "older", lots of guys as young as you in school. {{I've got a Springfield also, and it is cool}}

Blunderbuss: I think I would go to gunboards.com and post on one of the boards. Good folks there who will try and help.

I almost saw the friction of dividing up a gun collection, but the family was able to get over it. Peope get very odd over things like that. Lesson is; write it out in a mini-will just for the collection and stipulate, who gets what! {{yes, I haven't done it either}} And give real values to the spouse, or at least have real values posted somewhere, so she or he does not believe everything you have said in downplaying some of your investments and sells them away at 40% less than value.

05-05-2003, 10:48 PM	#1
Franz User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ellwood City, PA. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Howdy! Hello, I'm brand-new here. I have a Luger that was in my Grandfathers' collection and was promised to me when I was about 8 years old. I have had it now for about 25 years and just recently started to search for some backround on it. I have basically figured it to be a Krieghoff but that's where my research pretty much ends. The thing I can't find discussed anywhere is a stainless or chrome finish. All the ones I have seen have a blued finish. Any help would be appreciated.

05-06-2003, 01:15 AM	#4
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Franz, You will need a URL, Use this one, it is self explanitary, Murray http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/lfupload.html __________________ Lugers down under

05-06-2003, 02:36 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Franz, it is always possible that someone chromed or nickled the gun. This was common just after the war, and many guns were nickled or "chromed" (few are probably chrome, but really nickle). I have one that appears to be nickled, that is actually not nickle, but shiney steel, John Martz liked to make them that way, it has a 4 inch bull barrel on it. If you have problems posting, e-mail me, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-06-2003, 11:13 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Franz, If you camera is capable of higher resolution, try a higher mode... and see if that improves your photography... A tripod or rest of some type also helps eliminate the shutter jitters...that may improve the focus if the camera is autofocus. I have found that taking the photos outside on an overcast day is also helpful. Just take your time... and the nice thing about digital photos is they only cost your time... if they don't turn out right, just try again until you are satisfied... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-06-2003, 11:19 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Franz, even a web cam can take good photos... the conditions just have to be right... For instance, if you increase the resolution to 640x480 the images should be much better... But do you have a scanner? You can take credible images just by laying the pistol on the glass and scanning it... If the image is too large to upload, let me know... and I will help reduce it to a reasonable size. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-05-2003, 11:43 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Franz. This Krieghoff could be "in the white", that is, no finish at all. Several pistols of this type were made up just after WW2 ended from surviving parts. Need photos, if possible.

05-06-2003, 12:46 AM	#3
Franz User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ellwood City, PA. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'll try to load some pics tomorrow. Can I cut and paste or do the pics need a URL?

05-06-2003, 11:06 AM	#6
Franz User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ellwood City, PA. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well...here are some photos. Sorry for the poor quality.

05-06-2003, 11:15 AM	#8
Franz User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ellwood City, PA. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All I have is a cheapo webcam John...sorry.

05-06-2003, 12:57 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Franz, not bad pictures considering the el-cheap-o webcam, __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-06-2003, 01:29 PM	#11
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Franz, What you have is a nice mid-series "S", that has been refinished. Issue dates were estimated to be in 1936 (production may have been in y/e 1935), and there are 3 "S" variations - your's being the middle of that range. Military serialized and issued Kriegs were blued, rather then chromed/nickel plated - except for the presentation Kriegs that were plated (gold/silver/platnium..) (these, of course, were not-military issued, and yours, unforunately - isn't one of those). Also - I can't tell the type of material you have for grips?? Hope this helps, and all Kriegs are terrific!! Since it came from your Grand-dad, I'm sure it's special..!! Nice HK.!

05-06-2003, 07:32 PM	#12
Franz User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ellwood City, PA. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John. The grips are brown checkered plastic. How do you suppose it was refinished? I was told that before and was wondering because seeing how the letters and such aren't worn down, how would the finish be removed and why?

05-06-2003, 08:05 PM	#13
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Franz..! Brown checkered plastic grips are the correct grips, along with wood. There are two types - fine checkered RITZMANN Grips (which are a very dark brown and have very fine checkering), or a courser checkered, light brown plastic grip. My guess is you probably have the RITZMANN grips. Anyway - a lot of Lugers were refinished, and I can tell yours was by the cannon, extractor, toggle, sideplate and other parts. You see, the edges on Kriegs are somewhat well-defined and "sharp" (with the exception of some of the post-war "parts" guns which may have been buffed/reblued given some parts were "in the white" or various shades of "blue"). Anyway - this is what appears to be a properly matched mid-S, rather then a parts Krieg. As well - even the small parts are plated, as you can see (take down, etc.) - and even on the parts Kriegs, those tended to be "silver" (un-strawed, still "in-the-white") or strawed (except the right-side of the mag release, which would be fire blued or straw, depending).. However - one of the things I like about yours is that whoever did it - did not go "crazy" with the buffing wheel, as the stamps/proofs are still in VG shape, as you note. The give away for me was the edges having lost their original definition and "sharpness". As well, so has the toggle stamp lost a little "definition". Anyway - to answer your other question - some saw rather hard service during the war - and they were "souveniers" rather then collection pieces - so it wasn't uncommon to see GI's have them plated/dipped/reblued to make them look better. There are quite a few such examples - and not only in Lugers, but P-38s, PPks, etc. So who actually had it refinished is anyones guess..??? For that, and being a Krieg collector - any Krieg is outstanding But - I'm biased.. From a collectors standpoint, yes, it is not "original" - but to you, and many owners of re-finished Lugers - that lost value is more then made up by the sentimental attachment to the piece. As this was your Grand-dads, and you have such terrific memories from such a young age - I'm sure it is priceless to you - as it should be... In many ways - it's worth more then just another "original" Mid-S of collector value - for who can place a value on a grandson's/grandfathers relationship?? That's why I respect both values - the Krieg's and your's you have attached to it... In my mind - it makes it a terrific example - and worth hanging on to...

05-06-2003, 08:34 PM	#14
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Oh - and By The Way..... I was just reading down this thread after my last post - and I forgot to add in my first post: Welcome to the Luger Forum!!! Please continue to post in the Krieghoff Forum - as I kind'a like this one, especially well Best to you Franz..!!!

05-06-2003, 09:26 PM	#15
Franz User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ellwood City, PA. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well I will try as much as possible to post often...I am currently getting ready to go back to school. I am going to take a culinary course and try to become EmerilBeing 40 though I'm afraid I will kinda stand out in a campus setting. As for the sentimental value of the Luger...my Grandfather was the greatest and he had quite a gun and sword collection. When I was about 7 or 8 he promised me any gun I wanted out of his collection. My eyes were on that Luger ever since I eventually also got a VERY old Blunderbuss type gun(I have NO clue as to it's origin), an 1884 Springfield rifle and an 1859 Sharps rifle.Too bad there was a rift between my Father and his sister and they had an ugly battle over ownership of the remaining collection. My Aunt ended up getting the rest Oh well, at least I still have my Luger huh? BTW, any recommendations on how to find some info on that Blunderbuss type gun? Thanks alot for your help and I look forward to conversing with you in the future. Jim

05-06-2003, 09:56 PM	#16
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Franz..! Well - good luck going back to school - I hand it to you..! Franz wrote: "As for the sentimental value of the Luger...my Grandfather was the greatest and he had ...My eyes were on that Luger ever since... And that's what it is all about - to be honest... From your first post, I thought as much. Good for you... As well, my Grandfather was sort of special to me as well, and he had me trap shooting at the age of 10. I still have the three shotguns. As for the Blunderbuss you have, honestly - I can't help you out - so perhaps someone will chime in with their thoughts? In the meantime - please know you are most welcomed for the input and comments, no thanks necessary. It was my pleasure to help... See you in the Forums, OK??? Best, John

05-09-2003, 11:48 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Interesting that Franz' HK luger # 2141 is numbered after my S-code HK, serial # 2122; but Franz' luger has the earlier type B-2 toggle die whereas mine is an earlier-numbered gun that has the later type C die used... Really sounds like the folks at HK did not put guns together in any numerical sequence at all. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-10-2003, 03:39 AM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Franz! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Being 40 though I'm afraid I will kinda stand out in a campus setting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Good for you, and who cares! My wife works at a University and actually the campus age has gotten "older", lots of guys as young as you in school. {{I've got a Springfield also, and it is cool}} Blunderbuss: I think I would go to gunboards.com and post on one of the boards. Good folks there who will try and help. I almost saw the friction of dividing up a gun collection, but the family was able to get over it. Peope get very odd over things like that. Lesson is; write it out in a mini-will just for the collection and stipulate, who gets what! {{yes, I haven't done it either}} And give real values to the spouse, or at least have real values posted somewhere, so she or he does not believe everything you have said in downplaying some of your investments and sells them away at 40% less than value. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV