HK GESICHERT Die types......

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Strider:
<strong>......
Anything you can produce would be great.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">and....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by kidvett:
<strong>.....Do you want me to send you close up photos of that GESICHERT markings for your documentation.....

MARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">OK - here we go..........

The first photo is from an Early S. Notice the shape of the "G", and the serif on the character and the size of the letters....... Also NOTE the size of the "G" at the top-line of the character set (if you want to spot a fake HK - look there, too)


300 HK's later (into Mid-S Series now) - notice the die is a bit more worn. The letter are still the same size, with the lever covering certain baselines at, specifically - the lower-left "G". Same overall shape & "signature" as the earlier die type.

If you look at Mark's Early S in the previous thread (see Mark's "Early S" post), it carries better defination then this pic, as the die was less worn at that point:


OK - I'll skip Late S here, and look at a low serialized "36" (before 1936"). It's one of the first changeovers. Notice the characters are "blocked" and the "G" has lost the serif. Also, the lever covers more of the baseline - BUT - this varies as to how the die was applied to the frame. This is a terrific example of one of the first HK's produced with the later die type used in the majority of HK production quantities...


Fast forward to Early P-Code commercials....... Notice the die type. And based on the character formation, you can probably guessed when this was stamped...


Now - let's look at "1940". Take a look at the die above and below (which is why I said you could guess when the HK above was stamped). Same die - later progression.



OK - let's go to "1942" production (I'll skip a few years). Notice again - the same die type as was used throughout most of HK production - BUT - the die stamp is wearing here a bit. This is an early serialized "1942"


Finally - I'll skip some more iterations - and look at a post-war without ANY laquer fill to give you a good idea of the die, as it was stamped (this post-war is still "in the white").


Anyway - I hope this helps to show some examples of the transition and the differences. While I skipped a lot of years - I wanted to show the progression of the die types through HK manufacturing years....

Best to you,

John D.

[Vlim]

John,

Excellent piece of work.
Do the Simson dies look like the early S-code Krieghoffs?

[John D.]

Hi Gerben,

No - the Simson die looks different then any die Krieghoff used throughout their production, including their early die type. The Simson is more like the HK latter type die, but a very different "G", rounder top of the "R", different center stroke of the "E", and slightly different character spacing... If I get some time, I'll try to post a picture of two of the Simson markings - unless someone has one already handy they could post. Anyway - you'll see distinct differences between the two manufacturers...

Best to you!

John

[Strider]

John, thank you for the excellent photo essay you have provided us. I apologize for not responding and thanking you earlier for this. I have not had the opportunity to check the forum out for a couple of days due to some family business that needed to be taken care of.

Now for some questions using the letter G as an example. Taking a look at the photos #5 and #6 (top to bottom) the G on photo #6 appears to be a bit more rounded at the top than the G on photo #5 which appears to be squared off.

Would you say that the rounding of the G is cause by much use of the stamp? Wear and tear of the stamp.

Were the stamps a bit more rounded at the base of the stamp than the leading edge (first part to strike metal)which makes it look a bit different.?

Or could it possilbly be that it is another stamp that had the more rounded G used on photo #6?

The rest of the letters appear to match fairly well but the G has me puzzled.

I can not wait to get home tonight and take a look at the font and it's appearance and compare it to what you have shown us.

Thanks again. This is really cool.

Sid.

[John D.]

Hi Sid..!!!!

Outstanding eye!! Honestly - I'm not certain. I noticed the "G" on the 1940 when I was cropping the picture - but didn't give it any thought thereafter. My first guess was the one before/after are closer shots...

That being said - let me get the 1940 out tonite again, and compare it to the 1941 - 1942 - 1943, etc. and post back. It may also be that the previous owner refilled with laquer stick (I don't have one, and use a white grease crayon, so I don't fill that area) and left it filling both the stamp and the surrounding indents from that stamp - which would also give it a "rounder" appearance..???

Again - great question - and I'm looking forward to how yours compares! If possible - can you give the year of production for your HK to compare to the above?? Thanks!

Best to you!

John

[John D.]

Well.....

Now Iâ??m scratching my head.... Let me tell you why.

On my 1940 HK â?? the â??Gâ?� is slightly different - as is the "S". The rest of the characters match exactly, as does the OAL height and width of the die â?? BUT â?? there is definitely a very slight difference in the â??Gâ?�/"S". This 1940 in the photo has providence, and I know it is correct, and others in my collection also â??matchâ?� this same die.. More on this in a moment....

So â?? I took a â??walkâ?� through the photoâ??s in Gibsonâ??s book and my own collection. In Gibson - I want to note two pages and two examples. Page 88, 2nd picture from the bottom of the page. Itâ??s the same â??Gâ?�/"S" as on my 1940.. Next, flip to page 171 â?? serial # 10038 â??1938â?� (just over 100 from my 1940) â?? and the same die as the â??1940â?� shown aboveâ?¦. Now â?? in looking at my 1938, earlier then either of these two examples â?? it follows exactly what Gibson notes as â??GESICHERT - Die Type Bâ?�, as do the rest of my production examples â?? with the exception of my late 1944, 1945 and two of my Post-war examples (various frame years). HOWEVER, several of my other post war HKs follow my â??1940â?� stamp..!!?????

Interesting.

Was it â??die wearâ?�? I donâ??t think so â?? as the â??Gâ?� (moreso the "S") is slightly â?? almost imperceptibly different. But they are, in fact â?? â??differentâ?�. You have to look at one example â?? then the other in person. Another â??dieâ?�? Very possible. Were there two dies used at the factory? Even more plausible. Were there very minor differences between the two (or however many were used?)? My guess is â??yesâ?�.

Sid â?? my thanks for asking the question! Iâ??d be really interested in what year and die was used on yours as wellâ?¦!

This will be fun to pursue at the research level â?? very similar to some minor HK manufacturing differences that were overlooked in earlier published research â?? that can help an HK collector actually verify the year an HK frame was made (more on that in the future)â?¦

My thanks!

John

(P.S. Gerban â?? No â?? this is still very different then the Simson die )

[Strider]

John, I apologize if I have mislead you. It was not my intention to do so. I have a 1940/42 and the font type pretty much matches what you have shown for your 1940. The G and the S are more round about the curve of the letter.

I had noticed on many different photos the size of the fonts and styles that had changed over the years. I imagine that as the dies begin to wear out that some changes would appear on the letters over the course of its life. Although not enought to change the curvature of the letter (just my guess). The example shown on the others tends to lead me to believe that it is another die type used for that year (again just a guess).

If I may make a suggestion, if you have any "other" Lugers other than HK compare them to what you have shown and see if they match up or are different. Quite intersting stuff.

Thanks again for everything. By the way we are having a gun show this weekend in Albuquerque and I intend on picking up Gibson book this time around. I am looking forward to reading this one next.

Sid.

[kidvett]

John,

Incredible work you did !! Great photos & explanations......I do not have much knowledge on those but find it quite interesting to look at those small details & differences.....

Gerben mentionned the Simson.I then got curious & did some photos of the GESICHERT on a Simson blank chamber.......



Compared to a Late War 1918 dated Erfurt, thought it would look similar......but they are different.....



And both are different than the #717 KH ``Early`` S Code......



MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[John D.]

Hi Sid & Mark...

Sid - actually, don't thank me - it was your question that started all this off!! Great question - that has lead to this investigation..! OK - I did compare the "1940" HK to the following: Simson, DWM, Mauser (several) - but it's slightly different then all...???

Mark - simply outstanding!!!!! In fact - there is a difference to "your Early S" to my later "Early S" and Mid-S Catch the differences in the "G" - and the base-line of the "E"?? Hmmm.. I wonder then, really - how many HK Die types there are? Mr. Gibson notes 3 as "A, B, and C" with all early following the "A" type..? It looks to me like two types were used in the G/S Series (and in some of the P-Series)?

As well - on the 1940 - I'll follow my "hunch" there indeed could be some minor variations during production as noted by Mr. Gibson's "Type B" - and it looks more like Mark's Early S photo above then any other die??!!.. It needs quite a bit more research on both Early and main production years, to be sure..

Also - yep - notice the "G" on the Simson - where the top "descender" is flush with the overall height of the "E"? Also - the block formation is different then the HK... Mark - excellent work, photos and post!!! Our thanks!!!

John