Swiss Artillery

EricO · 04-29-2003, 12:44 AM

I have a most wonderful Swiss Artillery. (Swiss Cross over the chamber.) Serial No. 54XX.
The numbers match altho not all parts are numbered which, I understand, is typical of a non-military Luger.
It is similar to my 1917 Artillery except the barrel is quite slim without the 'boss' at the muzzle.
It is in excellent condition with excellent bore. It has, regrettably, been re-blued altho the blue has been very well done.

I have never seen a reference to a Swiss Artillery, here or elsewhere. Are these uncommon guns?

lugerholsterrepair · 04-29-2003, 02:20 AM

EricO, When you say Swiss artillery, Do you mean an 8" barrel with an artillery sight? Is the barrel and frame matching? Is there any sight groove on the rear toggle? More information please. Photo? Thanks, Jerry Burney

EricO · 04-29-2003, 05:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair:
EricO, When you say Swiss artillery, Do you mean an 8" barrel with an artillery sight? Is the barrel and frame matching? Is there any sight groove on the rear toggle? More information please. Photo? Thanks, Jerry Burney<hr /></blockquote>The barrel measures 7 inches with an artillery sight.
All the numbers match, however the extractor and forward part of the toggle are not numbered. Rear part of the toggle is number (and matches.)
I don't understand sight groove but would say there is no such groove. There is an indentation between the toggle knobs identical to the 1917.

Thanks for your reply.

Eric

John Sabato · 04-29-2003, 05:48 PM

EricO,

If these photos are what the barrel on your 7 inch barrel Artillery Luger looks like, then you should read these two message threads in this same forum for an explanation about how your pistol got to have this length of barrel.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f =5&t=000019#000000

http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=00 0025

John -Melb · 04-29-2003, 07:14 PM

According to "German Pistols and Revolvers 1871-1945" by Ian V. Hogg, the Swiss Military were using "converted" LP08's in 1919.
I've never seen one and Hogg's is the only reference I've ever seen to them. I would suggest that if yours is a genuine LP08 adopted by Switzerland around 1919 and so marked it would come under the "rare as rocking horse poo" label!

George Anderson · 04-30-2003, 10:53 AM

Ian Hogg also states in one of his books on German handguns that NO Lp08's were made prior to 1917! Any dated earlier were made-up from P08's. I am not able to give the exact quote now as my library and I are seperated by 900 miles and will be for another week.

Ian Hogg may be an authority, but not when it comes to LP08's.

mauro · 04-30-2003, 04:53 PM

Dear EriCo,
the history and use of Parabellum by Swiss Army is well described so we can state that NO LP08 were OFFICIALLY used.

In my book on LP08 I have dedicated a chapter to the relationship between Swiss and long barrelled Luger. I summarise here few points:

1. The Borchard Luger number 6, today in the RegnierÃ¢??s collection, was tested in November 1898 in Ã¢??long barrelledÃ¢?Â configuration: 6Ã¢?Â barrel and stock. The Swiss Army Commission was not interested on it and the pistol was modified into the current configuration.
2. The Kriegsmaterialverwaltung (KMW Ã¢?? Swiss Army Material Administration) was very interested in a long barrelled development before the LP08 acceptance. A 1900/06 (# E771) was modified with a 375mm long barrel and tangent sight calibrated up to 300 meters.
3. The last relationship between LP08 and Swiss army is that the adoption of the LP08 ended Luger production by DWM for the Swiss Army.

I have also met a LP08 with Swiss Cross over the chamber with a .22 caliber barrel and a particular rear sight. These reworked pistols were used maybe for firing competition but absolutely not by army.
Ciao

mauro · 05-01-2003, 01:36 PM

Concerning the point 2 I forgot to highlight that this pistol is only a prototype and is now at the Berna Museum. It was only tested but the Swiss army was not interested in his development.

04-29-2003, 12:44 AM	#1
EricO New User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Swiss Artillery I have a most wonderful Swiss Artillery. (Swiss Cross over the chamber.) Serial No. 54XX. The numbers match altho not all parts are numbered which, I understand, is typical of a non-military Luger. It is similar to my 1917 Artillery except the barrel is quite slim without the 'boss' at the muzzle. It is in excellent condition with excellent bore. It has, regrettably, been re-blued altho the blue has been very well done. I have never seen a reference to a Swiss Artillery, here or elsewhere. Are these uncommon guns?

04-29-2003, 02:20 AM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	EricO, When you say Swiss artillery, Do you mean an 8" barrel with an artillery sight? Is the barrel and frame matching? Is there any sight groove on the rear toggle? More information please. Photo? Thanks, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-29-2003, 05:28 PM	#3
EricO New User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair: <strong>EricO, When you say Swiss artillery, Do you mean an 8" barrel with an artillery sight? Is the barrel and frame matching? Is there any sight groove on the rear toggle? More information please. Photo? Thanks, Jerry Burney</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The barrel measures 7 inches with an artillery sight. All the numbers match, however the extractor and forward part of the toggle are not numbered. Rear part of the toggle is number (and matches.) I don't understand sight groove but would say there is no such groove. There is an indentation between the toggle knobs identical to the 1917. Thanks for your reply. Eric

04-29-2003, 05:48 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	EricO, If these photos are what the barrel on your 7 inch barrel Artillery Luger looks like, then you should read these two message threads in this same forum for an explanation about how your pistol got to have this length of barrel. http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f =5&t=000019#000000 http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=00 0025 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-30-2003, 04:53 PM	#7
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Dear EriCo, the history and use of Parabellum by Swiss Army is well described so we can state that NO LP08 were OFFICIALLY used. In my book on LP08 I have dedicated a chapter to the relationship between Swiss and long barrelled Luger. I summarise here few points: 1. The Borchard Luger number 6, today in the RegnierÃ¢??s collection, was tested in November 1898 in Ã¢??long barrelledÃ¢?Â configuration: 6Ã¢?Â barrel and stock. The Swiss Army Commission was not interested on it and the pistol was modified into the current configuration. 2. The Kriegsmaterialverwaltung (KMW Ã¢?? Swiss Army Material Administration) was very interested in a long barrelled development before the LP08 acceptance. A 1900/06 (# E771) was modified with a 375mm long barrel and tangent sight calibrated up to 300 meters. 3. The last relationship between LP08 and Swiss army is that the adoption of the LP08 ended Luger production by DWM for the Swiss Army. I have also met a LP08 with Swiss Cross over the chamber with a .22 caliber barrel and a particular rear sight. These reworked pistols were used maybe for firing competition but absolutely not by army. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

04-29-2003, 07:14 PM	#5
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	According to "German Pistols and Revolvers 1871-1945" by Ian V. Hogg, the Swiss Military were using "converted" LP08's in 1919. I've never seen one and Hogg's is the only reference I've ever seen to them. I would suggest that if yours is a genuine LP08 adopted by Switzerland around 1919 and so marked it would come under the "rare as rocking horse poo" label!

04-30-2003, 10:53 AM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Ian Hogg also states in one of his books on German handguns that NO Lp08's were made prior to 1917! Any dated earlier were made-up from P08's. I am not able to give the exact quote now as my library and I are seperated by 900 miles and will be for another week. Ian Hogg may be an authority, but not when it comes to LP08's.

05-01-2003, 01:36 PM	#8
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Concerning the point 2 I forgot to highlight that this pistol is only a prototype and is now at the Berna Museum. It was only tested but the Swiss army was not interested in his development. __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.