Forum closure or paranoid old conservative. - Page 2

John D. · 06-30-2002, 08:44 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Michael Jones:
<strong>John,

I would think if you read this entire thread and a few others in this forum, you would see why I used the term mess.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi again, Mike,

Well, seeing as how I have re-read this entire thread and a few other like it, in case I missed something - I still don't see the "mess" you are referencing? What I see, on the other hand - are numbers of questions posed by Jan Still and others, while various members of this Forum are offering their input, stating policy as put forth in the "Forum Decorum", and offering their opinions and impressions. And with exception of one individual - I would say much, if not all, of that discourse is a healthy process - as it reminds me somewhat of a political debate where people within that party are trying to develop their parties "platform". Certainly, I don't view "debate" as a mess just as surly as I don't view the democratic system a mess. You are certainly entitled to believe either, however.

[quote]Originally posted by Michael Jones:
<strong> But I do feel,since you are the founder of this web site and the alternate contact on the carbine that seems to be causing a lot friction on this forum between members. That you or Ralph should address some issues being raised and maybe this will clam down some members on this forum. </strong><hr></blockquote>

That is your feeling - and again, certainly you are entitled to feeling anything you would like. However, your feeling does not necessitate or require me - or Ralph - to offer you any explanation at all about "your" feelings, which appear to be simply predicated on a contact point on a webpage I programmed for Ralph. In fact, if either this Forum or my name on a webpage causes you to feel the slightest discomfort, you are also certainly able to exercise your right not to visit either that page nor this Forum, but just as certainly - you are more then welcomed to post here at any time.

I guess then since I don't see either the mess, nor share your feelings, nor agree that I owe you an explanation, yours is a rather difficult question to answer - if indeed, there was a question altogether?

Best Regards,

John

edgedealer · 06-30-2002, 10:46 PM

John, I think it is quite interesting that you are so put out by the word "mess." The problem seems to be that many members in this forum are relatively new to collecting, I'm guessing 2 to 5 years. They have obviously used Ralph Shattuck as their primary source of purchases and or advice.From the responses of a few members, Ralph can do no wrong.Then on the other hand, you have members that have been around for MANY years,20+. These are the collectors who were around in the 60's,70's and early 80's when there numerous quality Luger dealers and experts to gain knowledge from.I have been attending shows since the 70's. From my years of experience, I have heard many collectors complain about the same Ralph Shattuck.So who do you believe? the praisers or the older experienced collectors. There lies the "mess" that Mike brings up,it is nothing personal. Ralph's new buyers believe him and stick up for him, the experienced collector wants solid proof,not Ralph's word.
I think this forum can serve a great need for people to gain information and knowledge. Which is the key to collecting. Jeffrey

Dok · 07-01-2002, 09:41 AM

I would just like to address the point raised by TC earlier in the thread about the "sponsorship" of this forum by Ralph Shattuck.

This forum was run wholly and solely by John Chapman until late 2000 when a number of issues caused him to back out. I was unanimously "volunteered" as the new webmaster. I chose eight other member/posters as a Board of Directors so that the forum would be run democratically and not autocratically (even by me). Ralph Shattuck has never been one of the Directors.

John D. was one of the member/posters I chose to serve on the board. I was behind moving the forum out of Italy and Taiwan where it was then hosted and onto to US soil and picking the the web domain www.lugerforum.com, and it was John D. who graciously and generously offered his hosting, and expertise to the forum AT NO COST. John appears as the owner of the forum ONLY because he beat me to the punch in registering the name (we were both working on that simultaneously) and John paid that fee personally. Ralph Shattack was not then, and is not now, in any way a sponser of the forum.

It is true, that we have made annual "pilgrimages" to Ralph's World Of Lugers exclusively. Perhaps we would have been smarter to have "spread the wealth" and visited Bob Simpson and others, but we didn't see that as a problem then (and I'm not convinced it is one now). To be sure Ralph profits from his association with us, but there are many I'm sure who feel the reverse is also true.

Not being a collector, I can't venture an opinion on the authenticity of an particular weapon, and yes I have heard the "Ralph Shattuck" stories too, and I am long enough in the tooth to recoginise that nobody is perfect, I can say however, that Ralph Shattuck has always treated me with dignity and respect, and on my one visit to Phoenix, he was a most gracious host, and yet I have never purchased anything from Ralph.

As collectors, you have a symbiotic relationship with dealers, they are not predators for the most part any more than you are out to screw them. You need them, they need you.

While we may have erred by forging a very strong bond with only ONE major dealer, I would like to put to rest the notion that Ralph Shattuck is in some way "behind" this forum... he has NO financial, political or promotional sway in this forum, and the favourable comments or recommendations expressed here are those of the members themselves.

Dok <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

John Sabato · 07-01-2002, 11:07 AM

THANK YOU DOK!

Pete Ebbink · 07-01-2002, 08:49 PM

Great post, DOK !!!

Does anyone on the east coast (or the midwest) have a strong enough friendship with Bob Simpson to approach him about possibly hosting a Luger Fest - East ? Maybe something in the fall, so Luger Fest - West could continue in March and Luger Fest - East could occur annually in September ?

Galesburg seems like a great little town to make a pilgrimage to...

Jan C Still · 07-01-2002, 08:55 PM

Pete
Please send your phone number.
Jan
Phone 907-364-3406

tracyp · 07-01-2002, 10:47 PM

Unfortunately, Galesburg is out of way, there are no large airports close by. I was there in May and drove down from Chicago. It's about a 3 1/2 to 4 hour drive from Chicago.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-01-2002, 11:51 PM

Paranoia will destroya.....Jerry Burney

Jan C Still · 07-02-2002, 12:16 AM

Thanks Jerry

07-01-2002, 09:41 AM	#23
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I would just like to address the point raised by TC earlier in the thread about the "sponsorship" of this forum by Ralph Shattuck. This forum was run wholly and solely by John Chapman until late 2000 when a number of issues caused him to back out. I was unanimously "volunteered" as the new webmaster. I chose eight other member/posters as a Board of Directors so that the forum would be run democratically and not autocratically (even by me). Ralph Shattuck has never been one of the Directors. John D. was one of the member/posters I chose to serve on the board. I was behind moving the forum out of Italy and Taiwan where it was then hosted and onto to US soil and picking the the web domain www.lugerforum.com, and it was John D. who graciously and generously offered his hosting, and expertise to the forum AT NO COST. John appears as the owner of the forum ONLY because he beat me to the punch in registering the name (we were both working on that simultaneously) and John paid that fee personally. Ralph Shattack was not then, and is not now, in any way a sponser of the forum. It is true, that we have made annual "pilgrimages" to Ralph's World Of Lugers exclusively. Perhaps we would have been smarter to have "spread the wealth" and visited Bob Simpson and others, but we didn't see that as a problem then (and I'm not convinced it is one now). To be sure Ralph profits from his association with us, but there are many I'm sure who feel the reverse is also true. Not being a collector, I can't venture an opinion on the authenticity of an particular weapon, and yes I have heard the "Ralph Shattuck" stories too, and I am long enough in the tooth to recoginise that nobody is perfect, I can say however, that Ralph Shattuck has always treated me with dignity and respect, and on my one visit to Phoenix, he was a most gracious host, and yet I have never purchased anything from Ralph. As collectors, you have a symbiotic relationship with dealers, they are not predators for the most part any more than you are out to screw them. You need them, they need you. While we may have erred by forging a very strong bond with only ONE major dealer, I would like to put to rest the notion that Ralph Shattuck is in some way "behind" this forum... he has NO financial, political or promotional sway in this forum, and the favourable comments or recommendations expressed here are those of the members themselves. Dok <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> __________________ You can never be too rich; too thin; or too well armed! http://www.centercustomcases.com/

07-01-2002, 11:07 AM	#24
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	THANK YOU DOK! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-01-2002, 11:51 PM	#28
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Paranoia will destroya.....Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-30-2002, 08:44 AM	#21
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Michael Jones: <strong>John, I would think if you read this entire thread and a few others in this forum, you would see why I used the term mess.</strong><hr></blockquote> Hi again, Mike, Well, seeing as how I have re-read this entire thread and a few other like it, in case I missed something - I still don't see the "mess" you are referencing? What I see, on the other hand - are numbers of questions posed by Jan Still and others, while various members of this Forum are offering their input, stating policy as put forth in the "Forum Decorum", and offering their opinions and impressions. And with exception of one individual - I would say much, if not all, of that discourse is a healthy process - as it reminds me somewhat of a political debate where people within that party are trying to develop their parties "platform". Certainly, I don't view "debate" as a mess just as surly as I don't view the democratic system a mess. You are certainly entitled to believe either, however. [quote]Originally posted by Michael Jones: <strong> But I do feel,since you are the founder of this web site and the alternate contact on the carbine that seems to be causing a lot friction on this forum between members. That you or Ralph should address some issues being raised and maybe this will clam down some members on this forum. </strong><hr></blockquote> That is your feeling - and again, certainly you are entitled to feeling anything you would like. However, your feeling does not necessitate or require me - or Ralph - to offer you any explanation at all about "your" feelings, which appear to be simply predicated on a contact point on a webpage I programmed for Ralph. In fact, if either this Forum or my name on a webpage causes you to feel the slightest discomfort, you are also certainly able to exercise your right not to visit either that page nor this Forum, but just as certainly - you are more then welcomed to post here at any time. I guess then since I don't see either the mess, nor share your feelings, nor agree that I owe you an explanation, yours is a rather difficult question to answer - if indeed, there was a question altogether? Best Regards, John

06-30-2002, 10:46 PM	#22
edgedealer User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hawthorne,Ca Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, I think it is quite interesting that you are so put out by the word "mess." The problem seems to be that many members in this forum are relatively new to collecting, I'm guessing 2 to 5 years. They have obviously used Ralph Shattuck as their primary source of purchases and or advice.From the responses of a few members, Ralph can do no wrong.Then on the other hand, you have members that have been around for MANY years,20+. These are the collectors who were around in the 60's,70's and early 80's when there numerous quality Luger dealers and experts to gain knowledge from.I have been attending shows since the 70's. From my years of experience, I have heard many collectors complain about the same Ralph Shattuck.So who do you believe? the praisers or the older experienced collectors. There lies the "mess" that Mike brings up,it is nothing personal. Ralph's new buyers believe him and stick up for him, the experienced collector wants solid proof,not Ralph's word. I think this forum can serve a great need for people to gain information and knowledge. Which is the key to collecting. Jeffrey

07-01-2002, 08:49 PM	#25
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Great post, DOK !!! Does anyone on the east coast (or the midwest) have a strong enough friendship with Bob Simpson to approach him about possibly hosting a Luger Fest - East ? Maybe something in the fall, so Luger Fest - West could continue in March and Luger Fest - East could occur annually in September ? Galesburg seems like a great little town to make a pilgrimage to...

07-01-2002, 08:55 PM	#26
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Pete Please send your phone number. Jan Phone 907-364-3406

07-01-2002, 10:47 PM	#27
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Unfortunately, Galesburg is out of way, there are no large airports close by. I was there in May and drove down from Chicago. It's about a 3 1/2 to 4 hour drive from Chicago.

07-02-2002, 12:16 AM	#29
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Thanks Jerry