in defense of Mr. Shattuck...

[TC]

fellow collectors,
i am also curious about the recent thread on the .45 carbine? there have been a number of "attacks" on mr. shattuck on the authenticity of this luger now for several weeks if not months. it actually was the "black hole" that eventually consumed the last luger forum. still, after all that's been said on the issue, i don't recall mr. shattuck personally defending it or speaking of it. while many others have for him, he has never actually posted that i recall. why is that? it seems to me that if he personally spoke out on the issue then maybe some of this could be put to rest and we could all move on.

[img]confused.gif[/img]

[Brandon]

Tom,
Ralph don't have anything to prove, to people like you or me just the buyer of the .45 carbine
So he don't feel like wasting his time trying to convince some of the skeptics here (I would be the same way).

Now here is an idea:
Why don't we wait for the experts to decide if the carbine authentic or not??? Then the people who's opinions are wrong can just shut up and go on with life!

Brandon

[Roadkill]

Options:

A: It is real

B: It is not

C: A or B doesn't affect me either way

Answer: [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

I think I'll go with C

RK

[TC]

who are the "experts"? i thought ralph was? or is it kenyon? or is it mr. still?

point is brandon, ralph is the one that made the claim to begin with, but yet he seems to need you and others to defend that claim as you just did again. you're right though, he does not owe me an explanation, but it seems to me that with all the commotion, his silence on the issue is not helping matters and you and all of his storm troopers just make it worse. if ralph had not stood on the mountain top thumping his chest so loud before checking the thing out (with those "experts") we all would be back at the old forum. but he did not and now he sits back while we attack each other. all the while his website still proclaims his great "find". it would probably be wise to take that off his website, make an honest statement that "he", god forbide, might be wrong and that until the "experts" decide - this issue is closed.

but mr. shattuck has not done that. he has let this fester once again. perhaps it time the wizard came out from the curtain and addressed his followers. and others to stop chastising and harrasing innocent people who have questions about undocumented, one of a kind, never before seen or heard about lugers.

then again, that's just my opinion. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Brandon]

Tom,
Ralph does not pay me to say I think the carbine is real nor do I belong to a radical group that defends Ralph to the hilt I defend who I think is right, be it Ralph,you, or myself! This time I think it's Ralph!

My $0.02
Brandon

[Ron Wood]

Can we please just drop this .45 Carbine thing and never bring it up again. I know people are curious, myself among them. But constantly reopening the subject and then folks on both sides jumping in to clobber each other does not answer the questions. Maybe someday everyone will be satisfied on the subject, but it isn't going to be resolved here. I am not defending or supporting Ralph Shattuck, I'm just tired of the whole discussion. I don't want to stifle debate, but this one is going nowhere. It didn't before and it isn't now.

[wterrell]

DAMN!, TC, give it a rest! Let's wait for some evidence...hard, cold, verifiable evidence.
<img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> [quote]you and all of his storm troopers <hr></blockquote>

THAT WAS UNNECESSARY.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

[Karl]

My two cents:
I cannot claim to be an expert in Lugers, however, I know something about historical art and the art market (I have a Ph.D. in art history and archaeology, spent two years as research fellow at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and worked for a few prominent art dealers in New York City). There are many significant works of art displayed in museums that are shrouded in controversy, with no clear proof that they are authentic. Everyone knows this and accepts it as part of the intellectual challenge of the field. Consequently, I have no problem with rare controversial Lugers, it makes the field more interesting and stimulates intelligent debate and research. There may never be irrefutable proof that this carbine is what it appears to be, but in my opinion, its very existence will generate interest that will further our knowledge of G. Luger's experiments with the .45 ACP cartridge.

A few other observations:
Dealers are not responsible for responding to idle chit-chat from amateurs who have no interest in purchasing their offerings.

Experts have the opportunity to express their scholarly opinions in recognized journals relating to the field.

Caveat emptor applies to the very rich as well as to the rest of us.

I hope that I have not stepped on any toes. I genuinely appreciate the fraternity of all forum members, whether or not I agree with their opinions. Respectfully, KFS

[Brandon]

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>DAMN!, TC, give it a rest! Let's wait for some evidence...hard, cold, verifiable evidence.
<img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" />

THAT WAS UNNECESSARY.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Wes,
Thats what needed to be said! I'm glad someone finally told him!

Feild Marshall Brandon Metcalf, 1st regiment Storm Troopers

[TC]

fine i'll get off uncle ralph's back. i guess us poor amateurs that buy those purty guns from him really should just shut up and kiss the ground and thank our maker that he and so many other expert dealer so gladly take our money. didn't realize they never had to answer to anyone?

as for the "stormtrooper" comment, please explain why it was uncalled for? seems to me a lot of the members wrap themselves up in all the verbage and valor of germany when it suits them. i guess the term hit to close to home.

i'm outta here. i gotta go put my head back in the sand.
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

[Brandon]

Tom,
I am now pleading with you please just shut up!
You saw firsthand what Tim Canney and your nit-picking remarks caused at the old forum! Do you really want to drive this forum into the ground?
If not your doing a good job anyway! I motion that this thread be deleted! It will be a shame and disgrace to everything luger collecting stands for if we let this forum be closed down like the other one! Georg would roll over in his grave if he knew we were acting this way! Please stop the insanity!

Brandon

[wterrell]

Deletion is justified.

[Bud]

First off, let me say, that this subject ought to be just simply banned from further debate to avoid anymore troubles or anger or just prevent further confusion, and posted somewhere like "subject permanently closed", if indeed it is a catalyst for forum closures.
After all, certain types of guns get banned, so why not certain types of subjects.
Besides, someone could get sued real easy, cause our full names are visible on our profiles, so it seems like if anyone talks against someone or some company, there wouldn't be much of a problem anyway for those in detriment, since lawyers could be sent in to sue for the cost of one collectible luger. Jeese, now I know I wish I would have studied law, can imagine it now "Rates are hundreds of dollars per hour or trade for collectible lugers". Sorry, not being smart, just have a bad habit of cracking humor. Really, if I was a lawyer, I really would take collectible guns as payment, but hey, I am a gun nut anyway.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Karl has a great take on this subject. I agree wholeheartedly. Jerry Burney

[Herb]

I for one am tired of this discussion. If anyone has evidence that the carbine in the possession of Ralph Shattuck is not authentic, then post your reference or evidence. If not, then let it lie until the facts are in. This whole thread is nothing but a waste of good bandwith that could be beter used discussing Lugers in general. Ralph is not a newbie to this arena, he has been collecting for quite awhile and I am sure that he will let us know the results of the forensic testing. There were over 8 million Lugers produced, surely there were some prototypes in all of that production. Let's wait for the evidence before the jury is called.

[Bud]

I think that the subject needs a closure title at the top of the main page, since there could be newcomers to the site that might see the subject in question and debate it. It just seems so simple, and it wouldn't offend me, for instance. We should also ban all discussion of all lugers for sale, or at least ban where someone saw one, or just be left with words that they "know of" a luger somewhere that is going for such and such dollars, as pertaining to if someone is selling or wanting to buy something, and don't want everyone else in on the auction or such.
Like for instance, I am closely watching an auction that closes tomorrow at 3 pm, pertaining to some rifle accessories, and I would be nuts to talk about it on the net, so others can get in on the bidding and over bid it out of my price range.

[Garfield]

Brandon:

Here is a thought; Rather than have those members who doubt the authenticity of the 45 luger carbine"shut up", why don't you consider taking your own advice as you are contributing equally to the turmoil.

By the way, banning any futher comments regarding the above mentioned carbine because unfavorable comments offend the sensitivites of certain members certainly is the enlightened way to approach the problem.

IMHO,

Garfield

[Dok]

Now here's a bright idea... instead of having us close and lock the thread... if it REALLY has no value, why don't you just stop posting to it [img]confused.gif[/img]

This then would be the last post in the thread.

Dok