Swiss Sunburst vs Shield

Big Norm · 11-03-2003, 05:11 AM

Just a little thing that has me wondering while I am looking at a Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" currently on Gunbroker. The 1906 Swiss Luger came with both the "Cross in Sunburst" and the "Cross in Shield" on the chamber. Could someone please tell me why the Swiss put these two different patterns on the chamber?
Big Norm

Navy · 11-03-2003, 10:39 AM

Hi Norm,

IIRC, the cross in sunburst was to designate police procured/issue and the shield was to designate military procured guns.

Tom A.

rickyboy · 11-03-2003, 02:01 PM

how much a 99% never fired sunburst swiss luger could cost ??

i am going to take some pics tonight to a lot for sale.

Ron Wood · 11-03-2003, 02:11 PM

Up until 1909, the Federal Cross in Sunburst chamber marking was used for both commercial and military weapons. In 1909, the Swiss Parliament adapted a new design, the Federal Cross in Shield chamber marking, that is found exclusively on military Lugers. The insignia, when seen in color, is a red shield with a white cross. In heraldry, when a crest is rendered in black and white, vertical stripes are used to indicate the color "gules" or red.

The concept that the Cross in Shield chamber marking denoted police use was stated by Fred Datig in his first edition of "The Luger Pistol". This notion has pretty much been discarded, and even Datig modified his opinion somewhat in later editions to indicate that probable use of the marking was for military weapons.

Pete Ebbink · 11-03-2003, 10:25 PM

Hello Ron,

Care to venture a bet as to the exact serial number in which the M1906 Swiss switched from the cross/sunburst to the cross/shield ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

On page 61 of the Hausler book, they indicate this happened with gun # 9001...has this been fully documented...?

If I see Mr. Bob Lewis of Modesto, CA at the upcoming Reno show, I will be sure to ask him if he knows...as well.

To add a bit more to Datig's correction; on page 35 of his 1992 issued booklet "Monograph IV - The Swiss Variations 1897-1947", Datig indicates that since the Swiss cross/sunburst was previously used for both military and commercial guns, the change (in 1909) was intended to use the cross/shield for only military guns. This may be why we continue to see the older cross/sunburst being used on 1920's reworks and local gunsmith/shooting club reworks...(just speculating on this point...)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 11-03-2003, 10:34 PM

Rickyboy,
I would guess that the price of any gun would vary from country to country. The below Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" is pretty much the going price for one with a good holster and an appropriate magazine.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13275667

In my limited opinion and observations, finding a Swiss Luger in good shape is relatively easy because the Swiss are,on the whole, the best in the world at maintaining their weapons. Even though there are probably Swiss Lugers in bad shape someplace, I have yet to see an ugly Swiss Luger. Because of their usual condition, they are all prizes.
Big Norm

Navy · 11-03-2003, 10:45 PM

ALL,

Virtually all Swiss Lugers sold today were depot/arsenal refurbished by the Swiss government before they were released for sale. The exceptions would be most of the M1900s, which were surplused out before the refurbishment program started. If I were at home (Home, where's that?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I could provide citations from my library.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 11-03-2003, 11:13 PM

Tom A.,
Boy, the Swiss arsenal did a good job. On my Swiss "Cross in Shield" the dried oil (sperm whale oil?) on the strawed parts is still there. Although the grip straps do show a very slight wear.

I am sorta looking at the above Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" thats on GunBroker. It has the 'P' on the left side which, I believe is the mark for commerical sales. Would this gun also have been refurbished by the Swiss arsenal or were the military Lugers have been the only ones refurnished?
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 11-05-2003, 10:12 PM

Hello Norm,

Is this the Swiss on GunBroker you refer to ?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13275667

I am not sure I see a "P" on the left side...maybe the Muhlemann or Volgesang stamp in a cartouche...?

On a 1906 DWM, you would not expect to see a serial number stamping on the left side of the gun...and the P-commercial stampings did not occur on the 1906 DWM series, but rather on the later 1906 W+F Bern and the 1929 W+F Bern lugers...

If a Swiss gun was a commerical sale, the "P" should be in a prefix position in front of the serial nubmers and should be the same size and font style as the serials...

If it is a lone "P" or a "P w/2 digit date", this indicates a military gun released (and possibly refurbished) for privatized sale... This "P" stamping occurs on the left side (either ont the receiver flat or the frame rail) or sometimes on the front of the trigger guard...these "P" release stampings tend to be applied a little crooked on the gun as well...

Ron Wood made a posting a few weeks back about the Swiss habit of refurbishing their guns. As Ron mentioned, it is nice to find an "original" finish Swiss but a Bern factory rework does not seem to distract, much, from a gun's value either...similarly to the Dutch lugers and a few 1904 Navy lugers that have very old reworks... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 11-06-2003, 01:29 PM

GAWD!!! I knew when I posted that Pete would get on me.

I should never talk about something that I like, but know little about. As soon as I stop crying, I will get off of my throne in the bathroom an tell you guys about this Luger deal that I am negotiating. I am a little giddy at the prospects. This sitting and waiting for a reply to my offer is wrecking my nerves. Time for a Halloween tootsie pop or something to calm me down. If I succeed, then this GunBroker Swiss and a Vickers prospect will vanish from my thoughts for a while. I can't talk about it too much now because things are still up in the air <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> but I have to release tension. Ah, the trials and tribulations of a Luger collector...
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 11-06-2003, 02:15 PM

Hello Norm,

I am certainly not a Swiss expert...just have ready a lot in the last 1.5 years of my luger infection...

If you pass on that Vickers lead, you might want to let Doc Fisher know...such a luger is on his acquistion plan...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 11-06-2003, 10:31 PM

Pete,
the Vickers gun is a hard one for me to figure. There is no price comparision on the rarer or collectible Lugers. Pictures don't always tell the whole story. More often than not, you just have to feel your way around. The above mentioned Swiss is a good point. I have seen Swiss guns and looked at their prices. This may be a nice gun, but that price is not anything special. Not good but not bad either. Maybe I need to spend more time looking around. I am packing now to go deer hunting, so I think that I will pass on it for now.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 11-07-2003, 11:19 AM

Packing Norm? What do you need besides your jacket, a rifle and one cartridge?

Big Norm · 11-08-2003, 02:46 AM

John,
what I need is a few well placed rocks. With the way that I shoot, the only way I will ever get a deer is if I ricochet the bullet into my target. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> I find it very hard to shoot where I want with my heart jammed between my eyes. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> When my dad taught me how to shoot, he always said to practice bringing my rifle up and aim it at a tree. Well, that is what I do, and when a deer comes by, I always manage to shoot a tree.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 11-08-2003, 03:16 AM

What did those trees ever do to you bud?

I have found that I can shoot the smallest pebble from 50 feet away. Of course the target is the other direction.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

11-03-2003, 05:11 AM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Swiss Sunburst vs Shield Just a little thing that has me wondering while I am looking at a Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" currently on Gunbroker. The 1906 Swiss Luger came with both the "Cross in Sunburst" and the "Cross in Shield" on the chamber. Could someone please tell me why the Swiss put these two different patterns on the chamber? Big Norm

11-03-2003, 02:11 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Up until 1909, the Federal Cross in Sunburst chamber marking was used for both commercial and military weapons. In 1909, the Swiss Parliament adapted a new design, the Federal Cross in Shield chamber marking, that is found exclusively on military Lugers. The insignia, when seen in color, is a red shield with a white cross. In heraldry, when a crest is rendered in black and white, vertical stripes are used to indicate the color "gules" or red. The concept that the Cross in Shield chamber marking denoted police use was stated by Fred Datig in his first edition of "The Luger Pistol". This notion has pretty much been discarded, and even Datig modified his opinion somewhat in later editions to indicate that probable use of the marking was for military weapons. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-07-2003, 11:19 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Packing Norm? What do you need besides your jacket, a rifle and one cartridge? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-08-2003, 03:16 AM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	What did those trees ever do to you bud? I have found that I can shoot the smallest pebble from 50 feet away. Of course the target is the other direction.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-03-2003, 10:39 AM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Norm, IIRC, the cross in sunburst was to designate police procured/issue and the shield was to designate military procured guns. Tom A.

11-03-2003, 02:01 PM	#3
rickyboy User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	how much a 99% never fired sunburst swiss luger could cost ?? i am going to take some pics tonight to a lot for sale.

11-03-2003, 10:25 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron, Care to venture a bet as to the exact serial number in which the M1906 Swiss switched from the cross/sunburst to the cross/shield ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> On page 61 of the Hausler book, they indicate this happened with gun # 9001...has this been fully documented...? If I see Mr. Bob Lewis of Modesto, CA at the upcoming Reno show, I will be sure to ask him if he knows...as well. To add a bit more to Datig's correction; on page 35 of his 1992 issued booklet "Monograph IV - The Swiss Variations 1897-1947", Datig indicates that since the Swiss cross/sunburst was previously used for both military and commercial guns, the change (in 1909) was intended to use the cross/shield for only military guns. This may be why we continue to see the older cross/sunburst being used on 1920's reworks and local gunsmith/shooting club reworks...(just speculating on this point...) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-03-2003, 10:34 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Rickyboy, I would guess that the price of any gun would vary from country to country. The below Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" is pretty much the going price for one with a good holster and an appropriate magazine. http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13275667 In my limited opinion and observations, finding a Swiss Luger in good shape is relatively easy because the Swiss are,on the whole, the best in the world at maintaining their weapons. Even though there are probably Swiss Lugers in bad shape someplace, I have yet to see an ugly Swiss Luger. Because of their usual condition, they are all prizes. Big Norm

11-03-2003, 10:45 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	ALL, Virtually all Swiss Lugers sold today were depot/arsenal refurbished by the Swiss government before they were released for sale. The exceptions would be most of the M1900s, which were surplused out before the refurbishment program started. If I were at home (Home, where's that?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I could provide citations from my library. Tom A.

11-03-2003, 11:13 PM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom A., Boy, the Swiss arsenal did a good job. On my Swiss "Cross in Shield" the dried oil (sperm whale oil?) on the strawed parts is still there. Although the grip straps do show a very slight wear. I am sorta looking at the above Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" thats on GunBroker. It has the 'P' on the left side which, I believe is the mark for commerical sales. Would this gun also have been refurbished by the Swiss arsenal or were the military Lugers have been the only ones refurnished? Big Norm

11-05-2003, 10:12 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Norm, Is this the Swiss on GunBroker you refer to ? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13275667 I am not sure I see a "P" on the left side...maybe the Muhlemann or Volgesang stamp in a cartouche...? On a 1906 DWM, you would not expect to see a serial number stamping on the left side of the gun...and the P-commercial stampings did not occur on the 1906 DWM series, but rather on the later 1906 W+F Bern and the 1929 W+F Bern lugers... If a Swiss gun was a commerical sale, the "P" should be in a prefix position in front of the serial nubmers and should be the same size and font style as the serials... If it is a lone "P" or a "P w/2 digit date", this indicates a military gun released (and possibly refurbished) for privatized sale... This "P" stamping occurs on the left side (either ont the receiver flat or the frame rail) or sometimes on the front of the trigger guard...these "P" release stampings tend to be applied a little crooked on the gun as well... Ron Wood made a posting a few weeks back about the Swiss habit of refurbishing their guns. As Ron mentioned, it is nice to find an "original" finish Swiss but a Bern factory rework does not seem to distract, much, from a gun's value either...similarly to the Dutch lugers and a few 1904 Navy lugers that have very old reworks... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-06-2003, 01:29 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	GAWD!!! I knew when I posted that Pete would get on me. I should never talk about something that I like, but know little about. As soon as I stop crying, I will get off of my throne in the bathroom an tell you guys about this Luger deal that I am negotiating. I am a little giddy at the prospects. This sitting and waiting for a reply to my offer is wrecking my nerves. Time for a Halloween tootsie pop or something to calm me down. If I succeed, then this GunBroker Swiss and a Vickers prospect will vanish from my thoughts for a while. I can't talk about it too much now because things are still up in the air <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> but I have to release tension. Ah, the trials and tribulations of a Luger collector... Big Norm

11-06-2003, 02:15 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Norm, I am certainly not a Swiss expert...just have ready a lot in the last 1.5 years of my luger infection... If you pass on that Vickers lead, you might want to let Doc Fisher know...such a luger is on his acquistion plan... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-06-2003, 10:31 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, the Vickers gun is a hard one for me to figure. There is no price comparision on the rarer or collectible Lugers. Pictures don't always tell the whole story. More often than not, you just have to feel your way around. The above mentioned Swiss is a good point. I have seen Swiss guns and looked at their prices. This may be a nice gun, but that price is not anything special. Not good but not bad either. Maybe I need to spend more time looking around. I am packing now to go deer hunting, so I think that I will pass on it for now. Big Norm

11-08-2003, 02:46 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, what I need is a few well placed rocks. With the way that I shoot, the only way I will ever get a deer is if I ricochet the bullet into my target. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> I find it very hard to shoot where I want with my heart jammed between my eyes. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> When my dad taught me how to shoot, he always said to practice bringing my rifle up and aim it at a tree. Well, that is what I do, and when a deer comes by, I always manage to shoot a tree. Big Norm