Need history & (maybe) value information...

hanko · 09-30-2002, 01:13 PM

I'm ignorant as to Lugers specifically, but not too bad with firearms in general. Your expertise would be really appreciated. Here's the story...

I'm assisting the widow of a USMC BG in cataloging and organizing a gun collection. Luger in question was a bring-back; according to widow one of the BG's men took it from a German and presented it to him along with a Luftwaffe dagger. So far, bring-back papers have not been found, if they exist.

Items from the "Luger Identification Form" are:

Toggle inscription: DWM
Chamber inscription: Not present
Toggle knob type: Diamond knurl, with radial kunrl on outside edge
Grip Safety: Not present
Stock lug: Present
Caliber: 9mm
Gryp type: Walnut, checkered, no border
Thumb safety: Safe in rear, marked 'GESICHERT' visible in safe positiion
Marking: Crown over letter 'N' on front left side of receiver. s/n 736xx on bottom front of receiver. Component s/n's all match.
Barel Length: 4-inches
Markings on left edge of extractor: GELARANT (SP?)
Front/Rear sights: Front--dovetailed round front section, straight rear section with serrations. Rear--V notch
Mag Bottom Plug: Walnut, no markings

Miscellaneous...lanyard loop at rear of receiver above grip area.

More than 90% of bluing remains. Bluing is not present inside the receiver. Bluing wear, where present, is from holster...gun was carried a lot but shot very little. Bore has very sharp grooves and lands. Grips are perfect with sharp knurls, though they look like they could use a gentle cleaning. Serial numbers all match. No serial number found on mag. No accessories with gun.

The gun may be for sale, but I won't be sure if it will be for another couple of weeks. Digital camera, unfortuneately, is not available.

Thanks all once again for any help or advise.

Steve Deis
Kuna, ID

John Sabato · 09-30-2002, 01:29 PM

Steve,

There should be a year of manufacture stamped on the receiver above the chamber...if it is not there, the gun may have commercial origins, but was subsequently pressed into military service... Sounds like a nice Luger...

the markings on the extractor should be "geladen" which stands for "loaded"

lacking a digital camera, a very suitable image can be produced by placing the gun directly on the glass of a flatbed scanner... scan both sides and use a 200 or 250-300 dpi as a starter for good resolution of the scans. Then crop the scans to only show the pistol, eliminating the empty space will save file space. The top of the pistol can be scanned the same way.

save the scans in .jpg format and you can post the photos by creating a member gallery album (see the left frame link to the member gallery on our homepage. You will have to create a new gallery user... you can use the same id and password that you use for discussions (recommended).

If you have any other questions just ask...

Welcome to the lugerforum.

Ron Wood · 09-30-2002, 01:50 PM

Steve,
From your description and serial number, the gun sounds like a 1914 Commercial. The serial number and the Crown/N proof should also be on the underside of the barrel. Is the Crown/N on the receiver vertical or horizontal ("lazy")?

lugerholsterrepair · 09-30-2002, 02:04 PM

Hanko, Deffinately a commercial model from the markings you describe. Crown over N is the commercial indicator. No date on chamber does too. Most DWM militaries had the date on the chamber after 1910. I say most because there are always variables, some were ground off etc. Sounds like a nice pistol. The magazine should have a serial # if military, blank if commercial and Germany if imported to an English speaking country. Ditto for the pistol. If no Germany stamp it was brought into this country without being for sale. Commercials are generally less valuble than militaries. 9MM would make it more valuble as a commercial. Probably had a barrel change as most commercials of this era were in .30 cal.

Is the barrel serialed to the front of the frame? Are the serial #'s exposed or hidden?

Without seeing the pistol and relying on an accurate discription I would value this at $700.00 to $800.00. The fact that it is 9MM is a plus. Of course there are many things that could affect this estimate. Mismatched parts, barrel that does not match the rest of the pistol etc.

Lets see a photo and a little more info...Jerry Burney

Johnny Peppers · 09-30-2002, 02:57 PM

I agree with Ron that the pistol is a 1914 Commercial, and is a fairly hard variety to find. It is much rarer than the 1920's era commercials. It would not be unusual for the pistol to have been used in the military.

hanko · 09-30-2002, 06:10 PM

What a response! I'm impressed & very grateful. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[quote]Originally posted by John Sabato:

There should be a year of manufacture stamped on the receiver above the chamber...if it is not there, the gun may have commercial origins, but was subsequently pressed into military service... Sounds like a nice Luger...<hr></blockquote>

John, no date above the chamber. Also, it's obvious that the gun has not been refinished; i.e., a datte was not polished out.

[quote]the markings on the extractor should be "geladen" which stands for "loaded".<hr></blockquote>

That's it...my reading glasses were missing when I made the first post.

[quote]Steve,
From your description and serial number, the gun sounds like a 1914 Commercial. The serial number and the Crown/N proof should also be on the underside of the barrel. Is the Crown/N on the receiver vertical or horizontal ("lazy")? <hr></blockquote>

Ron, it's a lazy Crown-N

[quote]The magazine should have a serial # if military, blank if commercial and Germany if imported to an English speaking country. Ditto for the pistol. If no Germany stamp it was brought into this country without being for sale.Is the barrel serialed to the front of the frame? Are the serial #'s exposed or hidden?<hr></blockquote>

Jerry, mag has no s/n. Also, no Germany mark as gun was a bring-back...that's from a first-person account by widow of guy who brought it back as well as his son. Barrel numbers match w/ front of frame, they're hidden until the gun is field striped.

Johnny, thanks for the reply.

I'll get some scans on the way later in the week.
Thanks again for your collected knowledge.

Steve

p.s. I'd like to clean the gun for it's owner, as it hasn't been touched since it was placed in its display box 14 years ago. I'm stocked with cleaners & lubricants & greases. What do you all recommend & what shouldn't I use.

p.p.s. Do you know of a knowledgeable Luger person in the Boise area??

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Edward Tinker · 09-30-2002, 06:32 PM

Hey Steve, sounds like a nice Luger, was going to say I should drop by and chat about guns, but you are around 400 miles from me!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

hanko · 09-30-2002, 06:55 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Hey Steve, sound slike a nice Luger, was going to say I should drop by and chat about guns, but you are around 400 miles from me!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Edward, I've had a C&R for a long time, just never entered a 'Luger phase'. I've always liked Mausers since they're put together with a lot of care & precision, but I wasn't prepared for an order of magnitude improvement when I field stripped my friend's Luger. Workmanship is amazing (today's understatement). It is a REALLY nice gun, regardless of it's rarity relative to all the other possible Luger variations. Without getting too damn gushy, it's also neat because it's an integral part of a family's history, & I know the family.

In which direction/where are you?? My understanding of distance is better since I spent 13 years in TX [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Steve

Edward Tinker · 09-30-2002, 07:07 PM

60 some miles south of Spokane.

I've driven across Texas probably five or six times while i was in the Army, and it is a biiiig state. (Ron, you've driven across probably a 100 times...)

Yes, the Luger grabbed me also and knowing the history on it is really something to treasure, so you'll have to buy it fom the lady [img]biggrin.gif[/img] .

hanko · 09-30-2002, 08:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
Yes, the Luger grabbed me also and knowing the history on it is really something to treasure, so you'll have to buy it fom the lady [img]biggrin.gif[/img] .[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I've made some very low key comments to my financial manager & will gently continue. Given my performance at the recent Boise fun show, it may take me a while.

-hanko

Ron Wood · 09-30-2002, 10:11 PM

The "lazy" Crown/N definitely places your Luger as a 1914 Commercial, which as Johnny Peppers noted is a fairly scarce piece. Now, one final point: you state, "Barrel numbers match w/ front of frame, they're hidden until the gun is field striped".
The barrel markings should be clearly visible with the pistol assembled. Not sure where you are looking for the barrel serial number and proof. Could you please elaborate a bit? Thanks.

hanko · 10-01-2002, 09:59 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong> Now, one final point: you state, "Barrel numbers match w/ front of frame, they're hidden until the gun is field striped".
The barrel markings should be clearly visible with the pistol assembled. Not sure where you are looking for the barrel serial number and proof. Could you please elaborate a bit? Thanks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Two sets of barrel markings...

Serial number and upright commercial proof are visible when the gun is assembled.

A second group of markings appear in back of the first group, not visible until the gun is stripped:

Last 2 digits of the s/n as well as the letter 'N' are on the takedown locking lug.

Forward of the locking lug on the chamber looks like...

36 & then a small rectangle or letter 'D'
I (lazy) & a character I can't make out
P (?) lazy and directly below the lug.

Case color is still present on trigger, takedown latch. Not as bright as a new Win lever action, but still there.

Any comments on what you all recommend for cleaning & preservation stuff?

Again, many thanks.

-hanko

Ron Wood · 10-01-2002, 03:15 PM

You have a legitimate and matcing 1914 Commercial. Congratulations! [img]smile.gif[/img] At the 90% finish level you are looking at a value in the range of $1000 plus or minus. At 95%, somewhere around $1250. As far as cleaning and preservation goes, any good product such as Hoppes should be OK. Nothing abrasive! I usually protect my Lugers by wiping them down with a cloth lightly moistened with Tri-flow, which is similar to WD-40 but also has a teflon component. My conditions here in the desert Southwest are probably different than yours so maybe some forum member closer to your area has better products/suggestions.

hanko · 10-02-2002, 10:13 AM

Sorry for taking so long to reply...I was out of town all day yesterday.

MANY thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge. I'll post some pictures a little later this month.

Steve Deis

09-30-2002, 01:13 PM	#1
hanko User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kuna, ID Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need history & (maybe) value information... I'm ignorant as to Lugers specifically, but not too bad with firearms in general. Your expertise would be really appreciated. Here's the story... I'm assisting the widow of a USMC BG in cataloging and organizing a gun collection. Luger in question was a bring-back; according to widow one of the BG's men took it from a German and presented it to him along with a Luftwaffe dagger. So far, bring-back papers have not been found, if they exist. Items from the "Luger Identification Form" are: Toggle inscription: DWM Chamber inscription: Not present Toggle knob type: Diamond knurl, with radial kunrl on outside edge Grip Safety: Not present Stock lug: Present Caliber: 9mm Gryp type: Walnut, checkered, no border Thumb safety: Safe in rear, marked 'GESICHERT' visible in safe positiion Marking: Crown over letter 'N' on front left side of receiver. s/n 736xx on bottom front of receiver. Component s/n's all match. Barel Length: 4-inches Markings on left edge of extractor: GELARANT (SP?) Front/Rear sights: Front--dovetailed round front section, straight rear section with serrations. Rear--V notch Mag Bottom Plug: Walnut, no markings Miscellaneous...lanyard loop at rear of receiver above grip area. More than 90% of bluing remains. Bluing is not present inside the receiver. Bluing wear, where present, is from holster...gun was carried a lot but shot very little. Bore has very sharp grooves and lands. Grips are perfect with sharp knurls, though they look like they could use a gentle cleaning. Serial numbers all match. No serial number found on mag. No accessories with gun. The gun may be for sale, but I won't be sure if it will be for another couple of weeks. Digital camera, unfortuneately, is not available. Thanks all once again for any help or advise. Steve Deis Kuna, ID

09-30-2002, 01:29 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Steve, There should be a year of manufacture stamped on the receiver above the chamber...if it is not there, the gun may have commercial origins, but was subsequently pressed into military service... Sounds like a nice Luger... the markings on the extractor should be "geladen" which stands for "loaded" lacking a digital camera, a very suitable image can be produced by placing the gun directly on the glass of a flatbed scanner... scan both sides and use a 200 or 250-300 dpi as a starter for good resolution of the scans. Then crop the scans to only show the pistol, eliminating the empty space will save file space. The top of the pistol can be scanned the same way. save the scans in .jpg format and you can post the photos by creating a member gallery album (see the left frame link to the member gallery on our homepage. You will have to create a new gallery user... you can use the same id and password that you use for discussions (recommended). If you have any other questions just ask... Welcome to the lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-30-2002, 01:50 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Steve, From your description and serial number, the gun sounds like a 1914 Commercial. The serial number and the Crown/N proof should also be on the underside of the barrel. Is the Crown/N on the receiver vertical or horizontal ("lazy")? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-30-2002, 02:04 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Hanko, Deffinately a commercial model from the markings you describe. Crown over N is the commercial indicator. No date on chamber does too. Most DWM militaries had the date on the chamber after 1910. I say most because there are always variables, some were ground off etc. Sounds like a nice pistol. The magazine should have a serial # if military, blank if commercial and Germany if imported to an English speaking country. Ditto for the pistol. If no Germany stamp it was brought into this country without being for sale. Commercials are generally less valuble than militaries. 9MM would make it more valuble as a commercial. Probably had a barrel change as most commercials of this era were in .30 cal. Is the barrel serialed to the front of the frame? Are the serial #'s exposed or hidden? Without seeing the pistol and relying on an accurate discription I would value this at $700.00 to $800.00. The fact that it is 9MM is a plus. Of course there are many things that could affect this estimate. Mismatched parts, barrel that does not match the rest of the pistol etc. Lets see a photo and a little more info...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-30-2002, 06:32 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Hey Steve, sounds like a nice Luger, was going to say I should drop by and chat about guns, but you are around 400 miles from me! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-30-2002, 02:57 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I agree with Ron that the pistol is a 1914 Commercial, and is a fairly hard variety to find. It is much rarer than the 1920's era commercials. It would not be unusual for the pistol to have been used in the military.

09-30-2002, 06:10 PM	#6
hanko User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kuna, ID Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What a response! I'm impressed & very grateful. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> [quote]Originally posted by John Sabato: There should be a year of manufacture stamped on the receiver above the chamber...if it is not there, the gun may have commercial origins, but was subsequently pressed into military service... Sounds like a nice Luger...<hr></blockquote> John, no date above the chamber. Also, it's obvious that the gun has not been refinished; i.e., a datte was not polished out. [quote]the markings on the extractor should be "geladen" which stands for "loaded".<hr></blockquote> That's it...my reading glasses were missing when I made the first post. [quote]Steve, From your description and serial number, the gun sounds like a 1914 Commercial. The serial number and the Crown/N proof should also be on the underside of the barrel. Is the Crown/N on the receiver vertical or horizontal ("lazy")? <hr></blockquote> Ron, it's a lazy Crown-N [quote]The magazine should have a serial # if military, blank if commercial and Germany if imported to an English speaking country. Ditto for the pistol. If no Germany stamp it was brought into this country without being for sale.Is the barrel serialed to the front of the frame? Are the serial #'s exposed or hidden?<hr></blockquote> Jerry, mag has no s/n. Also, no Germany mark as gun was a bring-back...that's from a first-person account by widow of guy who brought it back as well as his son. Barrel numbers match w/ front of frame, they're hidden until the gun is field striped. Johnny, thanks for the reply. I'll get some scans on the way later in the week. Thanks again for your collected knowledge. Steve p.s. I'd like to clean the gun for it's owner, as it hasn't been touched since it was placed in its display box 14 years ago. I'm stocked with cleaners & lubricants & greases. What do you all recommend & what shouldn't I use. p.p.s. Do you know of a knowledgeable Luger person in the Boise area?? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

09-30-2002, 06:55 PM	#8
hanko User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kuna, ID Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>Hey Steve, sound slike a nice Luger, was going to say I should drop by and chat about guns, but you are around 400 miles from me! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Edward, I've had a C&R for a long time, just never entered a 'Luger phase'. I've always liked Mausers since they're put together with a lot of care & precision, but I wasn't prepared for an order of magnitude improvement when I field stripped my friend's Luger. Workmanship is amazing (today's understatement). It is a REALLY nice gun, regardless of it's rarity relative to all the other possible Luger variations. Without getting too damn gushy, it's also neat because it's an integral part of a family's history, & I know the family. In which direction/where are you?? My understanding of distance is better since I spent 13 years in TX [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Steve

09-30-2002, 07:07 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	60 some miles south of Spokane. I've driven across Texas probably five or six times while i was in the Army, and it is a biiiig state. (Ron, you've driven across probably a 100 times...) Yes, the Luger grabbed me also and knowing the history on it is really something to treasure, so you'll have to buy it fom the lady [img]biggrin.gif[/img] . __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-30-2002, 08:41 PM	#10
hanko User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kuna, ID Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: Yes, the Luger grabbed me also and knowing the history on it is really something to treasure, so you'll have to buy it fom the lady [img]biggrin.gif[/img] .[/QB]<hr></blockquote> I've made some very low key comments to my financial manager & will gently continue. Given my performance at the recent Boise fun show, it may take me a while. -hanko

09-30-2002, 10:11 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	The "lazy" Crown/N definitely places your Luger as a 1914 Commercial, which as Johnny Peppers noted is a fairly scarce piece. Now, one final point: you state, "Barrel numbers match w/ front of frame, they're hidden until the gun is field striped". The barrel markings should be clearly visible with the pistol assembled. Not sure where you are looking for the barrel serial number and proof. Could you please elaborate a bit? Thanks. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2002, 09:59 AM	#12
hanko User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kuna, ID Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong> Now, one final point: you state, "Barrel numbers match w/ front of frame, they're hidden until the gun is field striped". The barrel markings should be clearly visible with the pistol assembled. Not sure where you are looking for the barrel serial number and proof. Could you please elaborate a bit? Thanks.</strong><hr></blockquote> Two sets of barrel markings... Serial number and upright commercial proof are visible when the gun is assembled. A second group of markings appear in back of the first group, not visible until the gun is stripped: Last 2 digits of the s/n as well as the letter 'N' are on the takedown locking lug. Forward of the locking lug on the chamber looks like... 36 & then a small rectangle or letter 'D' I (lazy) & a character I can't make out P (?) lazy and directly below the lug. Case color is still present on trigger, takedown latch. Not as bright as a new Win lever action, but still there. Any comments on what you all recommend for cleaning & preservation stuff? Again, many thanks. -hanko

10-01-2002, 03:15 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	You have a legitimate and matcing 1914 Commercial. Congratulations! [img]smile.gif[/img] At the 90% finish level you are looking at a value in the range of $1000 plus or minus. At 95%, somewhere around $1250. As far as cleaning and preservation goes, any good product such as Hoppes should be OK. Nothing abrasive! I usually protect my Lugers by wiping them down with a cloth lightly moistened with Tri-flow, which is similar to WD-40 but also has a teflon component. My conditions here in the desert Southwest are probably different than yours so maybe some forum member closer to your area has better products/suggestions. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2002, 10:13 AM	#14
hanko User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kuna, ID Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry for taking so long to reply...I was out of town all day yesterday. MANY thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge. I'll post some pictures a little later this month. Steve Deis