German P.08 Military Ammo Specs?

max2cam · 07-21-2002, 07:58 PM

I've been trying to find this and none of the books I own seem to tell.

What were the original German P.08 cartridge loadings in WWI and WWII?

That is:

Bullet weight?
Bullet shape?
Muzzle Velocity?

This would be for the standard 4-inch models (in case there were special loads for the lang barreled Lugers).

I'm trying to match modern ammo with what my Luger originally would have shot.

Thanks!

Doubs · 07-22-2002, 01:43 PM

Datig's book devotes quite a bit of ink to the cartridges of the Luger and I would suggest a review of it. However, IIRC, the original military load was a 124 grain bullet of the truncated cone design and a velocity in the 1250 FPS range. NOT a wimpy load for a 9mm. The military changed to a roundnose bullet during WW1 after complaints by the Allies that the truncated cone bullet was designed to create more damage to human flesh than necessary. It was more propaganda than anything else.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-22-2002, 06:15 PM

I have some original Lapua 9mm ammo made during WW11 that I bought in 1974. I wrote to them about it and they told me it was made especially for the P.08,and (Germany was their ally at that time) and the MV was 1045fps with a 124 gr FMJ RN.
Lonnie
PS: The ammo is headtamped VPT 43 & 44

Doubs · 07-22-2002, 09:04 PM

Now that I'm home, I can verify what I said before. On page 198 of "The Luger Pistol" by Datig, the following data are listed for the 1902 DWM 480 C 9mm cartridge. Bullet is 124 grains, case is brass, powder is smokeless and the velocity is 1250 FPS. There is a footnote saying that all figures given are average and approximate in most cases. So, even if the velocity was somewhere between 1200 and 1250 FPS, it's still a pretty stiff load.

Herb · 07-22-2002, 10:22 PM

Was just looking at Reese's Luger Tips and he says that the German contract ammo during WWII was 115 grain at 1400 fps and originally it was 124 grain at 1400 fps. He says Canadian surplus 9mm works well. Have no idea where one might get it tho.

Frank · 07-22-2002, 11:12 PM

This is some bullet data from Walter's "The Luger Book"
Post 1916 - 115 to 124 gr
Late 1940 - 97 to 102 gr
Late 1942 - 89 to 92 gr

The 1940 bullet was steel and the 1942 bullet was sintered steel. I estimated the weight of a 1944 bullet from cartridge weight measurements at 88+ gr, so the 90 gr data appears correct. Hope this helps!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Herb · 07-22-2002, 11:55 PM

If someone was able to get his hands on some original WWII ammo, is there anyone on this forum that thas the proper equipment to analze it correctly, scales, chronograph, etc etc?? Or would the powder have deteriorated sufficiently to make such an analysis usless?

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-23-2002, 12:24 AM

I will donate some of my VPT 44 if someone wants to do some research on it. The powder and primers are still fine.
Lonnie

kidvett · 07-23-2002, 10:58 AM

I do have original WWII ammo:

Dominion Industries ( Canadian ) 1943
Nazi " black bullet & case " 1942, 43 & 44

Also have a couple of boxes of commercial Dominion Industries ( 1970's ) 124gr FMJ...a good duplicate of the original loading....

I would be more that happy to donate some of these for testing.....

I'm missing the chronograph....

kidvett [img]wink.gif[/img]

unspellable · 07-24-2002, 09:52 AM

I have the chronograph, scales, bullet puller, micrometer, etc.

For valid statistics you need at fire at least ten rounds, thirty is much better. Add a few more if you want to pull the bullets to measure powder charge, bullet weight, diameter etc. Double all that if you want to fire it from two pistols.

All my 9 mm Lugers that I am currently shooting have the military 4 inch barrel length. Someday I may break down and decide to shoot the six incher.

Artsi · 09-05-2002, 05:50 PM

Ahem... very close.

VPT - Valtion Patruunatehdas

Stamps (naturally) indicate year of manufacture.

-Artsi

John Sabato · 09-05-2002, 06:08 PM

Welcome back to the Lugerforum Artsi...

We haven't seen you post in a very long time. I hope you like the new discussion format...

I would introduce you to Terry AdeC Foley (tacfoley), a retired British Army officer who obviously spent some time in your country, but I see you have already met! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Artsi · 09-05-2002, 07:18 PM

Thank you Mr. Sabato. Didn't realize anybody to notice my absence.
New forum looks really good. Good job.

Thank you for welcoming me.

-

Also hello to Mr. Terry A C Foley.

- Artsi

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-04-2002, 05:00 PM

Hi All! about the canadian 1943 and the german black bullets ammo, better avoid both of them in a 08. the canadian one was designed around a first batch of ammo made and delivered to Finland for the Suomi SMG and it was hot stuff. tried some in a handgun, you get pistol and flamethrower in one weapon. Deutsches Waffen Journal , DWJ, made a test a few years ago shooting black bullets ( SE geschosse ) in P 08 and measuring wear and tear. the barrel was OK to shoot lead pellets after 800 rounds , they cut it in halves , no more rifling! TAC, I don't have the trancript about Bisley, lost a lot of mails because of viruses, I stopped using Outlook Express ( a kid in kindergarten knows how to get it out of business ) and I have no more pb. we talk a lot about british shooters situation here in France. we have a lot of british shooters crossing the channel to come here to shoot. during an IPSC match, I had a talk with a RO, he moved to France just because he wanted to keep practicing shooting handguns.

07-21-2002, 07:58 PM	#1
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	German P.08 Military Ammo Specs? I've been trying to find this and none of the books I own seem to tell. What were the original German P.08 cartridge loadings in WWI and WWII? That is: Bullet weight? Bullet shape? Muzzle Velocity? This would be for the standard 4-inch models (in case there were special loads for the lang barreled Lugers). I'm trying to match modern ammo with what my Luger originally would have shot. Thanks!

07-22-2002, 06:15 PM	#3
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have some original Lapua 9mm ammo made during WW11 that I bought in 1974. I wrote to them about it and they told me it was made especially for the P.08,and (Germany was their ally at that time) and the MV was 1045fps with a 124 gr FMJ RN. Lonnie PS: The ammo is headtamped VPT 43 & 44 __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-22-2002, 10:22 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Was just looking at Reese's Luger Tips and he says that the German contract ammo during WWII was 115 grain at 1400 fps and originally it was 124 grain at 1400 fps. He says Canadian surplus 9mm works well. Have no idea where one might get it tho. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-22-2002, 11:55 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	If someone was able to get his hands on some original WWII ammo, is there anyone on this forum that thas the proper equipment to analze it correctly, scales, chronograph, etc etc?? Or would the powder have deteriorated sufficiently to make such an analysis usless? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-23-2002, 12:24 AM	#8
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I will donate some of my VPT 44 if someone wants to do some research on it. The powder and primers are still fine. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-22-2002, 01:43 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,694 Times in 556 Posts	Datig's book devotes quite a bit of ink to the cartridges of the Luger and I would suggest a review of it. However, IIRC, the original military load was a 124 grain bullet of the truncated cone design and a velocity in the 1250 FPS range. NOT a wimpy load for a 9mm. The military changed to a roundnose bullet during WW1 after complaints by the Allies that the truncated cone bullet was designed to create more damage to human flesh than necessary. It was more propaganda than anything else.

07-22-2002, 09:04 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,694 Times in 556 Posts	Now that I'm home, I can verify what I said before. On page 198 of "The Luger Pistol" by Datig, the following data are listed for the 1902 DWM 480 C 9mm cartridge. Bullet is 124 grains, case is brass, powder is smokeless and the velocity is 1250 FPS. There is a footnote saying that all figures given are average and approximate in most cases. So, even if the velocity was somewhere between 1200 and 1250 FPS, it's still a pretty stiff load.

07-22-2002, 11:12 PM	#6
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	This is some bullet data from Walter's "The Luger Book" Post 1916 - 115 to 124 gr Late 1940 - 97 to 102 gr Late 1942 - 89 to 92 gr The 1940 bullet was steel and the 1942 bullet was sintered steel. I estimated the weight of a 1944 bullet from cartridge weight measurements at 88+ gr, so the 90 gr data appears correct. Hope this helps!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

07-23-2002, 10:58 AM	#9
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I do have original WWII ammo: Dominion Industries ( Canadian ) 1943 Nazi " black bullet & case " 1942, 43 & 44 Also have a couple of boxes of commercial Dominion Industries ( 1970's ) 124gr FMJ...a good duplicate of the original loading.... I would be more that happy to donate some of these for testing..... I'm missing the chronograph.... kidvett [img]wink.gif[/img]

07-24-2002, 09:52 AM	#10
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I have the chronograph, scales, bullet puller, micrometer, etc. For valid statistics you need at fire at least ten rounds, thirty is much better. Add a few more if you want to pull the bullets to measure powder charge, bullet weight, diameter etc. Double all that if you want to fire it from two pistols. All my 9 mm Lugers that I am currently shooting have the military 4 inch barrel length. Someday I may break down and decide to shoot the six incher.

09-05-2002, 05:50 PM	#11
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ahem... very close. VPT - Valtion Patruunatehdas Stamps (naturally) indicate year of manufacture. -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-05-2002, 06:08 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Welcome back to the Lugerforum Artsi... We haven't seen you post in a very long time. I hope you like the new discussion format... I would introduce you to Terry AdeC Foley (tacfoley), a retired British Army officer who obviously spent some time in your country, but I see you have already met! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-05-2002, 07:18 PM	#13
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Mr. Sabato. Didn't realize anybody to notice my absence. New forum looks really good. Good job. Thank you for welcoming me. - Also hello to Mr. Terry A C Foley. - Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

11-04-2002, 05:00 PM	#14
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi All! about the canadian 1943 and the german black bullets ammo, better avoid both of them in a 08. the canadian one was designed around a first batch of ammo made and delivered to Finland for the Suomi SMG and it was hot stuff. tried some in a handgun, you get pistol and flamethrower in one weapon. Deutsches Waffen Journal , DWJ, made a test a few years ago shooting black bullets ( SE geschosse ) in P 08 and measuring wear and tear. the barrel was OK to shoot lead pellets after 800 rounds , they cut it in halves , no more rifling! TAC, I don't have the trancript about Bisley, lost a lot of mails because of viruses, I stopped using Outlook Express ( a kid in kindergarten knows how to get it out of business ) and I have no more pb. we talk a lot about british shooters situation here in France. we have a lot of british shooters crossing the channel to come here to shoot. during an IPSC match, I had a talk with a RO, he moved to France just because he wanted to keep practicing shooting handguns. __________________ Shoot'in by DCB