Help needed with ID and value

CornFedHusker · 02-20-2005, 11:28 PM

Here is a bringback Luger that I have been asked to do some research on for a very special WWII veteran...apparently it is a matching numbers 1918 DWM model. It has not been disassembled to verify ALL numbers, but all visible two-digit stampings are 28, even though they may not look it in some of the pics due to the camera flash and uneven stamping. I have no idea what this might be worth. I also have no idea what the T67 and 67 stampings on the front strap and mag plate mean. He has the original holster, although it is in poor shape.

Any help is VERY much appreciated!

Right side markings -

Front strap -

Under barrel and in front of trigger -

Left side markings/numbers -

Back (out of focus) -

Top markings and date stamp -

Magazine plate markings -

Edward Tinker · 02-20-2005, 11:34 PM

Quick info for you,

It was made in 1918, and during the weimar or early nazi era, was turned over to the police (see the sear safety on the left, the bar), while it also had a magazine safety at one time also.

Ed

CornFedHusker · 02-20-2005, 11:44 PM

I have a feeling that this might have been a Training (or Train?) unit Luger. Isn't that what the "T" on the front strap means? It would make sense as this veteran also has a beautiful Mauser 98 single-shot trainer model as well.

He was a maintenence truck driver with a field artillery battallion. He acquired a LOT of great souveniers from his unit mates.

George Anderson · 02-21-2005, 08:53 AM

Most likely a police marking as it is a police gun. The "T" could represent Trier or Technische. Before the official directives were issued, alot of nonstandard marking was done.

Dwight Gruber · 02-21-2005, 11:41 AM

Ryan,

This Luger started life as a 1918 DWM LP-08 (Artillery). This can be determined by the DWM-style proof eagle (the rightmost stamping on the right receiver) and the notch on the top of the receiver, relieved for the rear tangent sight.

The gun was rebarreled by Simson & Co. in the 1920-1922 time frame, determined by the Eagle with TP figure on the right side of the barrel. Although this is commonly referred to as a mark of the "Technical Police", the reference is ambiguous. In 1937 there existed the Technische Poliizeischul (Zeugamt) (Technical Police Academy, Weapons Office) which in 1937 was recognized as the central authority for acquisition of police weapons, equipment, and ammunition (GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans, p.106). The Eagle/6 on the left side of the barrel is a Simson inspection mark.

The sear safety and magazine safety, as well as the 1 stamped on the magazine base, are indicators of a Police Luger. Your side plate is improperly seated, the tab on the right side should fit under the frame side panel. Side plates on a sear-safety gun are sometimes difficult to replace.

Considering the context of the gun, the grip strap marking is almost certainly a Police unit mark, but it is not stamped according to regulation. The only T listed refers to the Trier district, but without a preceding L or S (or K) it cannot be presumed to represent this. The corresponding 67 on the magazine base certainly indicates that it belongs to this weapon, but this stamping also is not in accordance with the Police marking instructions.

It would be interesting to see the holster to see if it is a Police-style holster, and if it has any markings.

--Dwight

CornFedHusker · 02-21-2005, 12:43 PM

Thank you very much for the info. It will be appreciated by the owner.

Any idea of what this might be worth? To the vet it is priceless, but the family would like to know what its collection value is for appraisal/insurance purposes.

I can try to get a pic of the holster and a pic of the whole gun next time I visit. I also want to get pics of his Mauser 98, P-38, Mauser .32 pistol and his Nazi battle flag.

Edward Tinker · 02-21-2005, 01:21 PM

as iDwight, what makes you think it was re-barreled? I don't neccesarily diagree that the T/P doesn't mean technical police, but I have been told that it is more likely just an acceptance marking by either Simson or the tech polizie.

It does come in other configurations, see Costanzo (I am traveling today, so no books available, well Weimar is in my suitcase, but that is normal on a travel). From what I understand the T/P can be intertwined, P/T etc.

Ryan, show us some clear photos (not so big they fill the entire screen) of both sides.

An all matching Weimar reissued luger in nice shape goes from $900-$1300. Much would depend on if the holster goes with it, what shape the holster is in, if there is a spare mag or tool with it, etc. It does have ONE matching mag, not really uncommon with police, but not incredibly common either. The 67 is interesting, as it is repeated for the grip strap marking.

Ed

02-20-2005, 11:28 PM	#1
CornFedHusker New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help needed with ID and value Here is a bringback Luger that I have been asked to do some research on for a very special WWII veteran...apparently it is a matching numbers 1918 DWM model. It has not been disassembled to verify ALL numbers, but all visible two-digit stampings are 28, even though they may not look it in some of the pics due to the camera flash and uneven stamping. I have no idea what this might be worth. I also have no idea what the T67 and 67 stampings on the front strap and mag plate mean. He has the original holster, although it is in poor shape. Any help is VERY much appreciated! Right side markings - Front strap - Under barrel and in front of trigger - Left side markings/numbers - Back (out of focus) - Top markings and date stamp - Magazine plate markings -

02-20-2005, 11:34 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Quick info for you, It was made in 1918, and during the weimar or early nazi era, was turned over to the police (see the sear safety on the left, the bar), while it also had a magazine safety at one time also. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-21-2005, 01:21 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	as iDwight, what makes you think it was re-barreled? I don't neccesarily diagree that the T/P doesn't mean technical police, but I have been told that it is more likely just an acceptance marking by either Simson or the tech polizie. It does come in other configurations, see Costanzo (I am traveling today, so no books available, well Weimar is in my suitcase, but that is normal on a travel). From what I understand the T/P can be intertwined, P/T etc. Ryan, show us some clear photos (not so big they fill the entire screen) of both sides. An all matching Weimar reissued luger in nice shape goes from $900-$1300. Much would depend on if the holster goes with it, what shape the holster is in, if there is a spare mag or tool with it, etc. It does have ONE matching mag, not really uncommon with police, but not incredibly common either. The 67 is interesting, as it is repeated for the grip strap marking. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-20-2005, 11:44 PM	#3
CornFedHusker New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a feeling that this might have been a Training (or Train?) unit Luger. Isn't that what the "T" on the front strap means? It would make sense as this veteran also has a beautiful Mauser 98 single-shot trainer model as well. He was a maintenence truck driver with a field artillery battallion. He acquired a LOT of great souveniers from his unit mates.

02-21-2005, 08:53 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Most likely a police marking as it is a police gun. The "T" could represent Trier or Technische. Before the official directives were issued, alot of nonstandard marking was done.

02-21-2005, 11:41 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ryan, This Luger started life as a 1918 DWM LP-08 (Artillery). This can be determined by the DWM-style proof eagle (the rightmost stamping on the right receiver) and the notch on the top of the receiver, relieved for the rear tangent sight. The gun was rebarreled by Simson & Co. in the 1920-1922 time frame, determined by the Eagle with TP figure on the right side of the barrel. Although this is commonly referred to as a mark of the "Technical Police", the reference is ambiguous. In 1937 there existed the Technische Poliizeischul (Zeugamt) (Technical Police Academy, Weapons Office) which in 1937 was recognized as the central authority for acquisition of police weapons, equipment, and ammunition (GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans, p.106). The Eagle/6 on the left side of the barrel is a Simson inspection mark. The sear safety and magazine safety, as well as the 1 stamped on the magazine base, are indicators of a Police Luger. Your side plate is improperly seated, the tab on the right side should fit under the frame side panel. Side plates on a sear-safety gun are sometimes difficult to replace. Considering the context of the gun, the grip strap marking is almost certainly a Police unit mark, but it is not stamped according to regulation. The only T listed refers to the Trier district, but without a preceding L or S (or K) it cannot be presumed to represent this. The corresponding 67 on the magazine base certainly indicates that it belongs to this weapon, but this stamping also is not in accordance with the Police marking instructions. It would be interesting to see the holster to see if it is a Police-style holster, and if it has any markings. --Dwight

02-21-2005, 12:43 PM	#6
CornFedHusker New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you very much for the info. It will be appreciated by the owner. Any idea of what this might be worth? To the vet it is priceless, but the family would like to know what its collection value is for appraisal/insurance purposes. I can try to get a pic of the holster and a pic of the whole gun next time I visit. I also want to get pics of his Mauser 98, P-38, Mauser .32 pistol and his Nazi battle flag.