A few guestions from a new Luger owner...

triggerhappy · 03-10-2005, 06:13 PM

I would like a few comments on the Luger that I bought yesterday. It is a 1913 DWM. The barrel and rear link has been changed. It cost me $140, is this a reasonable price for the gun? I got two mags with it, one original and one repro with a plastic bottom. It works well, except for one small problem, it doesn't stay open when the mag is empty. It does however stay open when I work the action manually. Otherwise it's a very nice gun to shoot.

I would also appreciate if you could tell me a bit about the gun. I have looked at the proofstamps but I donÃ?Â´t know what they mean. I have no book on the subject and I can't find them on this site (I am new to Lugers if you haven't already guessed that).

the gunman · 03-10-2005, 07:07 PM

Best price for a shooter I have heard of for a long long time

Paul L · 03-10-2005, 08:44 PM

Triggerhappy,

Is there a way for you to get mor light into the pics so we can see the details better ????????????

what a deal you got, i would've had my wallet open for $140 bucks too.....how does she shoot ??????? condition of bore ???????

Congrats, Paul

Navy · 03-10-2005, 09:04 PM

You stole the gun, pure and simple.

Tom A.

ken d · 03-10-2005, 09:12 PM

Triggerhappy:
With the barrel length and front sight and being unable to see the acceptance marks, I would guess it to be a Finnish rework.

Regards Ken D

pipeman45 · 03-11-2005, 02:48 AM

A deal ? I know several people that will double your money , And smile while they do it!!!

Dwight Gruber · 03-11-2005, 03:07 AM

Triggerhappy,

The circle/triangle/T on the top of the barrel is the mark of Oy Tikkakoski AB, Finnish barrel maker who supplied barrels for many Finnish Lugers. The front sight is characteristic of Finnish Lugers. Is there an SA inside a rectangular lozenge stamped on the left receiver?

For any Luger which isn't a buffed-out, reblued, mismatched junker $140 is a stone bargain of the highest order. You done good.

--Dwight

triggerhappy · 03-11-2005, 05:51 AM

Okey, here comes a few pictures in better light. I have included all profstamps that I could find. The barrel has no other marks except the circle/triangle/T. How can I tell if it is a finnish rework or if someone just changed the barrel?
Anyone that can tell me what the profstamps mean?

The condition of the barrel is good. I haven't shot it alot yet, only 25 rounds. Groups around 4-5 inches at 25yards, standing one handed hold, and that is the best I have done with any gun of this caliber, including some nice race guns... I have also tried only one brand of cheap ammo and one bullet wieght, so I don't know how good the ammo is.

Is this supposed to be a proofmark? A little bit on the small side...

Edward Tinker · 03-11-2005, 06:02 AM

The barrel question was essentially answered by Dwight, at some point it received a finnish barrel, unsure when or why, but must have been in their arsenal or a barrel added by them. WHAT does your serial number look like and under the barrel???? When you look over the rest of this forum for 1913 DWM's how does the underside of your barrel appear compared to them? Any military markings? i.e. 8,83, its serial number etc??

The proofmarks on the right are normal acceptance and proofing by DWM.

The last picture is a good one, took me a minute to figure out cuz it is so close, but your 1913 originally did not come with a hold open (someone correct me if I am wrong), and in 1916, it was decided that hold opens were required. That is the arsenal acceptance marking that the hold open was added.

Ed

Luke · 03-11-2005, 06:27 AM

You asked about the small proof mark in the last picture. Yes, that proof was applied at the time the holdopen was retrofit to the frame. The pin right above the proof indicates that a holdopen was added after the gun was manufactured.

According to Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" the holdopen was integrated into DWM Luger frames during the latter part of the 1912 production run and in all subsequent units. So, 1913s should not have a retrofit holdopen.

Often Finnish Lugers are made up of Luger parts with no consideration for matching numbers. Does the frame serial number match your other numbers? It is probable that the frame is from the 1908 to late 1913 period, as it does not have a stock lug. Stock lugs were added by DWM in late 1913.

Luke

triggerhappy · 03-11-2005, 06:55 AM

Yes, the serial number (2689) of the frame matches all other parts. As far as I can see only the barrel (obviously) and the rear link is non-matching.

Luke · 03-11-2005, 08:28 AM

I have uploaded a couple of other examples of holdopen retrofits from a 1911 DWM and a 1912 DWM for reference purposes. See below.

If your frame and receiver serial numbers match, then you probably have a 1913 DWM made before the changeover order in late 1913 which required stock lugs on all subsequent Army Lugers.

Both my 1913 DWMs have integrated holdopens, consistent with "Imperial Lugers" tables, and I cannot explain the presence of the retrofit on your 1913.

Perhaps someone else can comment on this.

Luke

Dwight Gruber · 03-11-2005, 11:33 AM

Triggerhappy,

A post at this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...t=firing+proof explains the marks on the right receiver.

Your new photos, although still too dark, clearly show that this Luger has no stock lug. Jan Still (Imperial Lugers) describes 1913 as a "transition year"; the stock lug shows up late in 1913 production, and a very few are reported manufactured without a holdopen. Estimated production of 1913 DWM was 35,000 pistols, if your example has no letter suffix under the frame number it is an early example and the added holdopen makes sense.

SA stamped inside a box on the left receiver is the Finnish military property
mark. If your Luger does not have this mark it is most likely that it was rebarrelled in Finland by a private owner.

Finland did not adopt the Luger as its official military sidearm until 1923; most Finnish Military Lugers came from Alphabet Commercial production, and are found proofed on the left receiver with an upright crown/N German commercial proof, along with the SA Finnish property mark. Finland maintained their Lugers aggressively. "Finnish reworks" are characterized by some combination of: mismatched parts; modified (square notch) rear sights; Tikka barrels; and a very matte, almost "Parkerized"-looking finish.

--Dwight

Alsky · 05-01-2005, 09:02 PM

If there is a Century Arms Import marking on the bottom side of the barrel then it came from the Finnish Army.

03-10-2005, 06:13 PM	#1
triggerhappy User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A few guestions from a new Luger owner... I would like a few comments on the Luger that I bought yesterday. It is a 1913 DWM. The barrel and rear link has been changed. It cost me $140, is this a reasonable price for the gun? I got two mags with it, one original and one repro with a plastic bottom. It works well, except for one small problem, it doesn't stay open when the mag is empty. It does however stay open when I work the action manually. Otherwise it's a very nice gun to shoot. I would also appreciate if you could tell me a bit about the gun. I have looked at the proofstamps but I donÃ?Â´t know what they mean. I have no book on the subject and I can't find them on this site (I am new to Lugers if you haven't already guessed that).

03-11-2005, 02:48 AM	#6
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A deal ? I know several people that will double your money , And smile while they do it!!! __________________ Dave

03-11-2005, 06:27 AM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	You asked about the small proof mark in the last picture. Yes, that proof was applied at the time the holdopen was retrofit to the frame. The pin right above the proof indicates that a holdopen was added after the gun was manufactured. According to Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" the holdopen was integrated into DWM Luger frames during the latter part of the 1912 production run and in all subsequent units. So, 1913s should not have a retrofit holdopen. Often Finnish Lugers are made up of Luger parts with no consideration for matching numbers. Does the frame serial number match your other numbers? It is probable that the frame is from the 1908 to late 1913 period, as it does not have a stock lug. Stock lugs were added by DWM in late 1913. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

03-11-2005, 08:28 AM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	I have uploaded a couple of other examples of holdopen retrofits from a 1911 DWM and a 1912 DWM for reference purposes. See below. If your frame and receiver serial numbers match, then you probably have a 1913 DWM made before the changeover order in late 1913 which required stock lugs on all subsequent Army Lugers. Both my 1913 DWMs have integrated holdopens, consistent with "Imperial Lugers" tables, and I cannot explain the presence of the retrofit on your 1913. Perhaps someone else can comment on this. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

03-10-2005, 07:07 PM	#2
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Best price for a shooter I have heard of for a long long time

03-10-2005, 08:44 PM	#3
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Triggerhappy, Is there a way for you to get mor light into the pics so we can see the details better ???????????? what a deal you got, i would've had my wallet open for $140 bucks too.....how does she shoot ??????? condition of bore ??????? Congrats, Paul

03-10-2005, 09:04 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	You stole the gun, pure and simple. Tom A.

03-10-2005, 09:12 PM	#5
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Triggerhappy: With the barrel length and front sight and being unable to see the acceptance marks, I would guess it to be a Finnish rework. Regards Ken D

03-11-2005, 03:07 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Triggerhappy, The circle/triangle/T on the top of the barrel is the mark of Oy Tikkakoski AB, Finnish barrel maker who supplied barrels for many Finnish Lugers. The front sight is characteristic of Finnish Lugers. Is there an SA inside a rectangular lozenge stamped on the left receiver? For any Luger which isn't a buffed-out, reblued, mismatched junker $140 is a stone bargain of the highest order. You done good. --Dwight

03-11-2005, 05:51 AM	#8
triggerhappy User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okey, here comes a few pictures in better light. I have included all profstamps that I could find. The barrel has no other marks except the circle/triangle/T. How can I tell if it is a finnish rework or if someone just changed the barrel? Anyone that can tell me what the profstamps mean? The condition of the barrel is good. I haven't shot it alot yet, only 25 rounds. Groups around 4-5 inches at 25yards, standing one handed hold, and that is the best I have done with any gun of this caliber, including some nice race guns... I have also tried only one brand of cheap ammo and one bullet wieght, so I don't know how good the ammo is. Is this supposed to be a proofmark? A little bit on the small side...

03-11-2005, 06:02 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	The barrel question was essentially answered by Dwight, at some point it received a finnish barrel, unsure when or why, but must have been in their arsenal or a barrel added by them. WHAT does your serial number look like and under the barrel???? When you look over the rest of this forum for 1913 DWM's how does the underside of your barrel appear compared to them? Any military markings? i.e. 8,83, its serial number etc?? The proofmarks on the right are normal acceptance and proofing by DWM. The last picture is a good one, took me a minute to figure out cuz it is so close, but your 1913 originally did not come with a hold open (someone correct me if I am wrong), and in 1916, it was decided that hold opens were required. That is the arsenal acceptance marking that the hold open was added. Ed

03-11-2005, 06:55 AM	#11
triggerhappy User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, the serial number (2689) of the frame matches all other parts. As far as I can see only the barrel (obviously) and the rear link is non-matching.

03-11-2005, 11:33 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Triggerhappy, A post at this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...t=firing+proof explains the marks on the right receiver. Your new photos, although still too dark, clearly show that this Luger has no stock lug. Jan Still (Imperial Lugers) describes 1913 as a "transition year"; the stock lug shows up late in 1913 production, and a very few are reported manufactured without a holdopen. Estimated production of 1913 DWM was 35,000 pistols, if your example has no letter suffix under the frame number it is an early example and the added holdopen makes sense. SA stamped inside a box on the left receiver is the Finnish military property mark. If your Luger does not have this mark it is most likely that it was rebarrelled in Finland by a private owner. Finland did not adopt the Luger as its official military sidearm until 1923; most Finnish Military Lugers came from Alphabet Commercial production, and are found proofed on the left receiver with an upright crown/N German commercial proof, along with the SA Finnish property mark. Finland maintained their Lugers aggressively. "Finnish reworks" are characterized by some combination of: mismatched parts; modified (square notch) rear sights; Tikka barrels; and a very matte, almost "Parkerized"-looking finish. --Dwight

05-01-2005, 09:02 PM	#14
Alsky User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If there is a Century Arms Import marking on the bottom side of the barrel then it came from the Finnish Army.