The poor old 9mm!

Rod WMG · 10-22-2005, 02:40 AM

I believe it was on NCIS, which used to be billed as "Navy NCIS" (somewhat redundantly) that it was stated this week that the 9mm was "slow and not accurate past thirty meters."

Dang! All my Lugers are in a cruddy caliber.

Ron Smith · 10-22-2005, 09:02 AM

They really should try firing them out of a pistol. The speed and accuracy would improve greatly.

Rod WMG · 10-22-2005, 12:39 PM

Yep, Ron, shooting out of a keyboard just isn't the same thing, is it?

Hugh · 10-22-2005, 12:40 PM

And did you notice that the bullet they had under the microscope was lead and not jacketed??

Frank · 10-22-2005, 01:08 PM

When I saw that crap, I said they should do their homework!! Accurate to 30 yards My A$$

Ron Smith · 10-23-2005, 10:38 AM

Having been in the Navy. They probably had some old Bos'n Mate firing them out of a sling shot. And a couple of deck apes with a tape measure checking the trajectory.

Rod WMG · 10-23-2005, 12:20 PM

Hugh, I didn't remember the lead bullet. I guess I must have dozed off on that one! Good call.

I do remember the description of the need to get close to fire the shot. I'm sure people could shoot from a moving car, but I personally can't even use a cell phone and drive!

unspellable · 10-24-2005, 03:01 PM

Hey guys! I've seen 9 mm pistols that were not accurate past 30 yards! They weren't Lugers, but they were still inaccurate beyond thirty yards!

If the bullet was lead, I've heard a number of stories about High Powers not liking lead bullets.

Sieger · 10-24-2005, 03:56 PM

Bull:

I've shot many 3 in 1 hole groups with the 9mm.

I guess if you try hard enough, you can screw up anything!!

Sieger

Ron Smith · 10-24-2005, 05:09 PM

I have been shooting handguns at long ranges since I was a boy. It fascinates me to see how far away I can strike a target. And it has always amazed me to hear gun "experts" say, "That gun won't shoot that far!" or " Hands guns aren't accurate at that distance!"

There is a documented unfortunate instance recorded in an old American Rifleman magazine. In a midwestern state a young boy while playing on his swing , was struck in the head by a 9mm FMJ bullet and died.

After an extensive investigation, it was discovered that a man on a neighboring farm had been shooting at cans floating in a canal. One of the bullets had glanced off of the water and struck the boy. The distance was estimated to be well over a mile.

I have shot my artillery luger, off hand with stock attached, at over 200 yards. The group did not exceed 6". So I think the Navy is, after all, being the Navy.

Ron

policeluger · 10-24-2005, 05:13 PM

I've been lucky here to work on and shoot NCIS guns....Sig 9mm and Uzi 9mm....hummmm....the #5 man with NCIS is due at my place this afternoon from DC, I'll ask him what he thinks...

Rod WMG · 10-24-2005, 05:25 PM

Many people have contended for years that the 9mm is almost in the .357 mag's league. The velocity is pretty good IMO, though I prefer the .357 for several reasons I won't go into. The 9's no slouch though.

As for the accuracy it sort of depends on the platform (gun), but all sorts of cr...uh, crud is written and shown in the media. I've read that .38 snubs couldn't be depended on across an elevator. I'd be willing to demonstrate that a 100 yard wide "elevator" is reasonable with one or two of my snubs!

Mas Ayoob used to give a formula for hitting a man in the chest with a .38 Snub at 100 yards--he said either to hold on the nose or chin, I've forgotten which. He doesn't advocate stuff like that in print anymore as far as I can tell. Guess legal constraints are involved.

Ron Smith · 10-24-2005, 05:47 PM

Rod, Ayoob's formula is aim at the chin. I also have a S&W 640 2" .357 that I can shred a 1 gal milk jug with at 100yds. It's not the gun, it's the shooter.

With this I can do the same at 300-400 yards. Not quite as well as I used to, now that my eye sight is going T.U.

S&W Mod.57 .41 mag. 8-3/8" Barrel

Ron

Sieger · 10-24-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
That is indeed very odd. In the early 1970's, the Royal Marine weapons instructor, Gillie Howe, had the brilliant idea of shooting the service Browning 9mm at 100, 200 and 300 yards. Having achieved waht he judged to be a reasonable degree of accuracy, he invited a few pals along to have ago.
They had so much fun that they founded the British Long-Range Pistol Shooting Association. The rest, as they say, is history.

We still shoot the long-range single-shot pistol and revolver here in UK, in spite of the difficulties involved. Anyone who wants to see what we currently shoot is invited to examine the website of the Southern Gun Company, or to give me a call on my e-mail and see my Ruger Super Redhawk or my pal John's SGC in .223Remington.

I was shooting my revolver last sunday. in fact. The thirty-shot group at 100m measures just over 2.5 inches, edge to edge, but is is only an otherwise standard revolver remember, albeit one with 12" bull barrel and a 2-7 Burris scope on top.

tac

GOOD SHOW!!!!!!!

Sieger

Sieger · 10-24-2005, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Smith
I have been shooting handguns at long ranges since I was a boy. It fascinates me to see how far away I can strike a target. And it has always amazed me to hear gun "experts" say, "That gun won't shoot that far!" or " Hands guns aren't accurate at that distance!"

There is a documented unfortunate instance recorded in an old American Rifleman magazine. In a midwestern state a young boy while playing on his swing , was struck in the head by a 9mm FMJ bullet and died.

After an extensive investigation, it was discovered that a man on a neighboring farm had been shooting at cans floating in a canal. One of the bullets had glanced off of the water and struck the boy. The distance was estimated to be well over a mile.

I have shot my artillery luger, off hand with stock attached, at over 200 yards. The group did not exceed 6". So I think the Navy is, after all, being the Navy.

Ron

Ron:

That 200 yard group sounds a little wide to me for a good LP-08.

You must have shot it off hand.

Sieger

Sieger · 10-24-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank
When I saw that crap, I said they should do their homework!! Accurate to 30 yards My A$$

Frank:

They probably had a group of trained apes shooting the pistols!!

That, or, perhaps, some recent "High School" graduates were involved in the process.

Sieger

Ron Smith · 10-24-2005, 06:12 PM

Tac, I take it then that the master mason was chastised for his overt demonstration of bravado...

Sieger, Didn't want to brag.

unspellable · 10-25-2005, 06:53 PM

Well, the silhouette shooters at the nationals sometimes have to put 14 out of twenty into a half life sized prairie chicken at 200 meters as tie breaker. Minute of angle revolvers have been built.

As for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge, there are an awful lot of pistols chambered for it, ranging from the best to absolute crap. I would expect accuracy to cover the same range. But it's been demonstrated that a military issue Luger will match an accurized 1911 for accuracy.

I'm inclined to say that just about any cartridge can be accurate with careful loading and an accurate platform to launch it.

10-22-2005, 02:40 AM	#1
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The poor old 9mm! I believe it was on NCIS, which used to be billed as "Navy NCIS" (somewhat redundantly) that it was stated this week that the 9mm was "slow and not accurate past thirty meters." Dang! All my Lugers are in a cruddy caliber.

10-22-2005, 09:02 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	They really should try firing them out of a pistol. The speed and accuracy would improve greatly. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-22-2005, 12:40 PM	#4
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	And did you notice that the bullet they had under the microscope was lead and not jacketed?? __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

10-23-2005, 10:38 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Having been in the Navy. They probably had some old Bos'n Mate firing them out of a sling shot. And a couple of deck apes with a tape measure checking the trajectory. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-24-2005, 03:56 PM	#9
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	9mm Not Accurate Bull: I've shot many 3 in 1 hole groups with the 9mm. I guess if you try hard enough, you can screw up anything!! Sieger

10-22-2005, 12:39 PM	#3
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yep, Ron, shooting out of a keyboard just isn't the same thing, is it?

10-22-2005, 01:08 PM	#5
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	When I saw that crap, I said they should do their homework!! Accurate to 30 yards My A$$

10-23-2005, 12:20 PM	#7
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hugh, I didn't remember the lead bullet. I guess I must have dozed off on that one! Good call. I do remember the description of the need to get close to fire the shot. I'm sure people could shoot from a moving car, but I personally can't even use a cell phone and drive!

10-24-2005, 03:01 PM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Hey guys! I've seen 9 mm pistols that were not accurate past 30 yards! They weren't Lugers, but they were still inaccurate beyond thirty yards! If the bullet was lead, I've heard a number of stories about High Powers not liking lead bullets.

10-24-2005, 05:09 PM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I have been shooting handguns at long ranges since I was a boy. It fascinates me to see how far away I can strike a target. And it has always amazed me to hear gun "experts" say, "That gun won't shoot that far!" or " Hands guns aren't accurate at that distance!" There is a documented unfortunate instance recorded in an old American Rifleman magazine. In a midwestern state a young boy while playing on his swing , was struck in the head by a 9mm FMJ bullet and died. After an extensive investigation, it was discovered that a man on a neighboring farm had been shooting at cans floating in a canal. One of the bullets had glanced off of the water and struck the boy. The distance was estimated to be well over a mile. I have shot my artillery luger, off hand with stock attached, at over 200 yards. The group did not exceed 6". So I think the Navy is, after all, being the Navy. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-24-2005, 05:13 PM	#11
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I've been lucky here to work on and shoot NCIS guns....Sig 9mm and Uzi 9mm....hummmm....the #5 man with NCIS is due at my place this afternoon from DC, I'll ask him what he thinks...

10-24-2005, 05:25 PM	#12
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many people have contended for years that the 9mm is almost in the .357 mag's league. The velocity is pretty good IMO, though I prefer the .357 for several reasons I won't go into. The 9's no slouch though. As for the accuracy it sort of depends on the platform (gun), but all sorts of cr...uh, crud is written and shown in the media. I've read that .38 snubs couldn't be depended on across an elevator. I'd be willing to demonstrate that a 100 yard wide "elevator" is reasonable with one or two of my snubs! Mas Ayoob used to give a formula for hitting a man in the chest with a .38 Snub at 100 yards--he said either to hold on the nose or chin, I've forgotten which. He doesn't advocate stuff like that in print anymore as far as I can tell. Guess legal constraints are involved.

10-24-2005, 05:47 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Rod, Ayoob's formula is aim at the chin. I also have a S&W 640 2" .357 that I can shred a 1 gal milk jug with at 100yds. It's not the gun, it's the shooter. With this I can do the same at 300-400 yards. Not quite as well as I used to, now that my eye sight is going T.U. S&W Mod.57 .41 mag. 8-3/8" Barrel Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-24-2005, 06:12 PM	#17
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Tac, I take it then that the master mason was chastised for his overt demonstration of bravado... Sieger, Didn't want to brag. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-25-2005, 06:53 PM	#18
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Well, the silhouette shooters at the nationals sometimes have to put 14 out of twenty into a half life sized prairie chicken at 200 meters as tie breaker. Minute of angle revolvers have been built. As for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge, there are an awful lot of pistols chambered for it, ranging from the best to absolute crap. I would expect accuracy to cover the same range. But it's been demonstrated that a military issue Luger will match an accurized 1911 for accuracy. I'm inclined to say that just about any cartridge can be accurate with careful loading and an accurate platform to launch it.