1917 Death Head - Page 3

cirelaw · 01-29-2012, 06:11 PM

George That Makes Real Sence!!

sheepherder · 02-01-2012, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitsword

Gosh,
I feel so ..well useless/worthless/numba thun a powndud thum. I do try to be more 'knowledgable", alas I cannot find a corporate wall to protect myself..and now this.

Vince -

(I missed this first time around...)

Honest, I wasn't trying to single you out...I really value your posts, and look forward to your remarks...

...But you must admit, any of our membership who have written a book on such niche subjects as Luger lore must be accredited a measure of respect substantially greater than mere Luger accumulators...

(And I consider myself a bottom-feeding Luger accumulator...Not necessarily the lowest of the low...maybe the lowest of the high...or perhaps the highest of the low...All I can say is, there's a lot more of us here at the bottom than there are at the top...)

alvin · 02-25-2012, 08:27 PM

Just watched this 1918 death head sold on OCA. Any thought on this one?

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDeta...2&lid=12358628

https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...7202/391-2.jpg

Hugo Borchardt · 02-26-2012, 12:58 AM

Alvin:

I was surprised to see it went for 3500 including buyer premium....I think there are likely real and fake out there (like everything right?) I like that it was in somewhat lousy condition. Mine is in similar condition (a 1912) and I like to think someone wouldn't bother with faking a beat up one, or likewise beat up a fake one. I hope some day more info shows up, such as an original doc with the same cartoonish DH. This is one of my favorite Luger mysteries....I lean towards application on bringbacks right after WWI by some type of US militia or a secret society, or a private signature similar to VONO?

I was interested in an early Luger in the same auction, but bidding was a little wild. Hopefully a good sign for the Luger market...

Clark

alvin · 02-26-2012, 08:21 AM

Yeah, quite a few guys wanted this gun and pumped the price up. Probably people got bored on "regular" Lugers, and mystery around DH attracts them. I watched bidding, Luger market is not bad for sellers -- many single action revolvers went under lower estimation, but most Lugers went in line with that.

rob00000 · 02-26-2012, 02:56 PM

Wow! There are so many variations, unit markings, models, controversies (and I thought there was a lot of controversy around JFK's assasination-that was before I discovered lugers-that's for sure!) (I never would've thunk!) It's unbelieveable. And every so often a troll shows up to liven things up around here!! Never a boring moment at this website. I love it!! ......so glad I joined. Here's to the never ending luger drama....I'll drink to that...

p.s. If you ever get bored...just come to lugerforum.com, click on "Message Board" & start reading......INSTANT CURE FOR BOREDOM!!!

sheepherder · 02-26-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob00000

...And every so often a troll shows up to liven things up around here!!

...

rob00000 · 02-26-2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

...

I didn't say we tolerated them or they lasted long here. Ha! Ha!

alvin · 02-26-2012, 07:33 PM

I guess this 1918 must be sold and bought by a sub-specialized Luger collectors. Otherwise, who would care a stamp on it. God knows. Hopefully, someone could study DH and publish something in future.

CavScoutEurope · 02-27-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M.

Maybe a ring to go along with this gun. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GERMAN-SKULL...item41619f9fe0

If that is a real Totenkopf ring then it is not cheep! Himmler felt that that ring was the highest award that an SS officer could recieve. Below is info on the Totenkopf that I copied from Wikipedia. With that said, I think that the info is actually good.

Use of the symbol as a military insignia began with the cavalry of the Prussian army under Frederick the Great. Frederick formed Husaren-Regiment Nr. 5 (von Ruesch), a Hussar regiment commanded by Colonel von Ruesch. These Hussars adopted a black uniform with a Totenkopf emblazoned on the front of their mirlitons and wore it on the field in the War of Austrian Succession and in the Seven Years' War.

In 1808, when the regiment was reformed into Leib-Husaren Regiments Nr.1 and Nr.2, the Totenkopf remained a part of the uniform. During the Napoleonic Wars, when Frederick William, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, was killed in battle, his troops changed the colour of their uniforms to black, with a Totenkopf on their shakos in mourning their dead leader (Other sources claim that the "Black Brunswickers" were so equipped while Friedrich Wilhelm of Brunswick lived, as a sign of revenge on the French.[2]

The "death's head" continued to be used throughout the Prussian and Brunswick Armed forces until 1918, and some of the stormtroopers that led the last German offensives on the Western Front in 1918 used Death's Head badges.[3]

[edit] Weimar Republic

The Totenkopf was used in Germany throughout the inter-war period, most prominently by the Freikorps. In 1933, it was in use by the regimental staff and the 1st, 5th, and 11th squadrons of the Reichswehr's 5th Cavalry Regiment as a continuation of a tradition from the Kaiserreich.

whcoyote · 02-29-2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Thanks Postino
Great pic.
I see that is a heavy duty 2 man flamethrower unit.
It makes sense some of these specialized troops where unhappy with how the war ended. They joined the Freikorps to express their displeasure and took their TK insignias with them.
Would be interesting to see the style of the TK logo on one of the German WW1 rifles you mentioned.
Bob

I think it is correct to say that the Freikorps was formed primarily to combat the spread of Socialism in post-WWI Germany. It is reasonable to assume that some men joined for other reasons.

The mark under the V on the right side of the receiver indicates a second inspector with a last name that starts with the same letter as another inspector with more tenure. I have also seen C/Letter Acceptance Stamps with a horizontal line to the left of the letter, but this is the first time I have seen a vertical line to the side of a letter.

jfxcushman · 03-06-2012, 11:14 AM

I will add my TK to this discussion, as it is very similar to Jared's, except the rune is much less prominent. The fact that my TK also has numerous Nitro proofs indicate both went to the commercial market after the war. My TK is matched with a 1916 holster which is also serial numbered to the gun. It is a 1918 Erfurt. The holster also has a very faint TH stamped on the front of the holster. The Luger is also Nazi police due to Safety seer alteration.
-Did the holster come with the gun during the war, or were they matched up after the war? If after the war, I suspect they were Freikorps applied. If they were matched during the war, then flamethrower or storm troop unit origin is possible.
- The unit marking on the front trigger guard is eastern European origin I believe, either Czeck unit or one in Poland of the Algemeine SS type. The trigger guard is stamped S.R.C. 43. If desired I will post photos of this trigger guard.
Could these TKs have been stamped in 1960? Yes, but the holster TK is very faint and I believe to be WWI or Freikorps period.

02-26-2012, 12:58 AM	#44
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 340 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	Alvin: I was surprised to see it went for 3500 including buyer premium....I think there are likely real and fake out there (like everything right?) I like that it was in somewhat lousy condition. Mine is in similar condition (a 1912) and I like to think someone wouldn't bother with faking a beat up one, or likewise beat up a fake one. I hope some day more info shows up, such as an original doc with the same cartoonish DH. This is one of my favorite Luger mysteries....I lean towards application on bringbacks right after WWI by some type of US militia or a secret society, or a private signature similar to VONO? I was interested in an early Luger in the same auction, but bidding was a little wild. Hopefully a good sign for the Luger market... Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

02-26-2012, 02:56 PM	#46
rob00000 User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Connecticut Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Wow! There are so many variations, unit markings, models, controversies (and I thought there was a lot of controversy around JFK's assasination-that was before I discovered lugers-that's for sure!) (I never would've thunk!) It's unbelieveable. And every so often a troll shows up to liven things up around here!! Never a boring moment at this website. I love it!! ......so glad I joined. Here's to the never ending luger drama....I'll drink to that... p.s. If you ever get bored...just come to lugerforum.com, click on "Message Board" & start reading......INSTANT CURE FOR BOREDOM!!! Last edited by rob00000; 02-26-2012 at 03:01 PM. Reason: ..

03-06-2012, 11:14 AM	#52
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I will add my TK to this discussion, as it is very similar to Jared's, except the rune is much less prominent. The fact that my TK also has numerous Nitro proofs indicate both went to the commercial market after the war. My TK is matched with a 1916 holster which is also serial numbered to the gun. It is a 1918 Erfurt. The holster also has a very faint TH stamped on the front of the holster. The Luger is also Nazi police due to Safety seer alteration. -Did the holster come with the gun during the war, or were they matched up after the war? If after the war, I suspect they were Freikorps applied. If they were matched during the war, then flamethrower or storm troop unit origin is possible. - The unit marking on the front trigger guard is eastern European origin I believe, either Czeck unit or one in Poland of the Algemeine SS type. The trigger guard is stamped S.R.C. 43. If desired I will post photos of this trigger guard. Could these TKs have been stamped in 1960? Yes, but the holster TK is very faint and I believe to be WWI or Freikorps period. Attached Thumbnails

01-29-2012, 06:11 PM	#41
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	George That Makes Real Sence!!

02-25-2012, 08:27 PM	#43
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Just watched this 1918 death head sold on OCA. Any thought on this one? https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDeta...2&lid=12358628 https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...7202/391-2.jpg

02-26-2012, 08:21 AM	#45
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Yeah, quite a few guys wanted this gun and pumped the price up. Probably people got bored on "regular" Lugers, and mystery around DH attracts them. I watched bidding, Luger market is not bad for sellers -- many single action revolvers went under lower estimation, but most Lugers went in line with that.

02-26-2012, 07:33 PM	#49
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I guess this 1918 must be sold and bought by a sub-specialized Luger collectors. Otherwise, who would care a stamp on it. God knows. Hopefully, someone could study DH and publish something in future.