1917 Death Head

jared427 · 01-24-2012, 08:14 PM

I finally got a macro lens for my Nikon so I figured I would share my death head with you. There are some different stampings on it. On the right side of the receiver where the eagle acceptance stamp is. It looks like the last eagle has an X on it and a horizontal nitro stamp. And the trigger guard has a different stamping on it also. Thanks for the input.
Jared

lugerholsterrepair · 01-24-2012, 08:23 PM

Nice shooting! Really good photo's.

sheepherder · 01-24-2012, 09:49 PM

I'm going to post the closeup of the chamber totenkopf for future reference...

Jared - It is requested that you post pictures directly to LugerForum...Some of our members (the more knowledgeable ones) are behind corporate firewalls that block PhotoBucket, YouTube, SmugMug, etc...and because PhotoBucket 'upgrades' their site regularly (for example, Flash) and anyone not having the latest upgrade can't view the pics...

sheepherder · 01-24-2012, 09:58 PM

I am a big fan of 'Totenkopf" Lugers...Is this a chamber stamp that has been displayed here before??? Not the gun itself, but the stamping...

(I'm assuming the Freikorps stamped rather than engraved the graphics)...

pitsword · 01-24-2012, 11:32 PM

Gosh,
I feel so ..well useless/worthless/numba thun a powndud thum. I do try to be more 'knowledgable", alas I cannot find a corporate wall to protect myself..and now this.

Ben M. · 01-25-2012, 11:43 AM

Maybe a ring to go along with this gun. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GERMAN-SKULL...item41619f9fe0

Vlim · 01-25-2012, 11:54 AM

Just a reminder. In Germany a retired gun smith has come forward, who claimed he applied these TK markings on behalf of a German importer around 1960.

So treat these markings with some reservations and remember that they start to show patina because they have been applied some 60 years ago by now.

SIGP2101 · 01-25-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Just a reminder. In Germany a retired gun smith has come forward, who claimed he applied these TK markings on behalf of a German importer around 1960.

So treat these markings with some reservations and remember that they start to show patina because they have been applied some 60 years ago by now.

And beside that they look cartoonishly silly like my 6 years old would designed them.
That wasn’t German way nooo way.

sheepherder · 01-25-2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

And beside that they look cartoonishly silly like my 6 years old would designed them.
That wasn’t German way nooo way.

Somewhere on this Forum is a pic of a Freikorps truck with the same cartoonish skull & bones...

Let's remember, these were not skilled craftsman, proud of their work...they were bar room clowns; thugs who beat up elderly shopkeepers and who brawled in the streets with Communist demonstrators...

That even one of them could carve any graphic out of a piece of steel and stamp it on pistols & rifles (there are pics of the skull on rifles too) is remarkable...

As for Vlim's comment, that is certainly possible...but did that mechanic do *all* the death's head lugers, rifles, and trucks??? Nooo way...

Vlim · 01-25-2012, 06:44 PM

Norme,

Nobody is saying that the freikorps units, or others did not apply death head logos to their equipment. So that argument is not a valid one.

But, you are free to believe whatever you want. To me it is perfectly clear that most, if not all, DH logos on lugers were applied by the same gun around 1960. Caveat Emptor

Norme · 01-25-2012, 06:56 PM

Hi Gerben, I haven't contributed to this discussion yet, you must mean forum member Rich (postino). Regards, Norm

sheepherder · 01-25-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Gerben, I haven't contributed to this discussion yet, you must mean forum member Rich (postino). Regards, Norm

We're like brothers; people always mistake us for each other...

IIRC the discussion here a year or two ago, there were photos in respected Luger books showing these 'cartoonish' graphics before 1960...

That deaths head graphics could be copied is a valid argument, although why copy such an amateurish depiction is confusing...Why not, as SIG2101 alluded, do a proper death's head & bones??? If Vlim's master gunsmith was responsible, was he copying an existing and proven death's head graphic on a Luger and wanted it to be recognized as the same workmanship???

...I like controversial Lugers...Someone find a Russian contract 1906 Luger with a death's head...

jared427 · 01-25-2012, 07:51 PM

But what about the over stampings and the X over the last eagle? Also the X with a line thru it on the trigger guard?

saab-bob · 01-25-2012, 07:55 PM

I remember reading a fascinating thread on this forum about the TK logo. There was a picture of a WW1 German officer with a insignia that matches the cartoon logo seen on some of these lugers. He was reportedly in one of the flamethrower units.

Has any WW1 luger ever been seen that is unit marked from one of these German flamethrower outfits,with that same TK logo?

The little marking above the skull does look like a hose of some kind.
That marking is not on the later Nazi TK and the style of the TK seems different.
Just thinking out loud.
Gerben is right, you can believe what you want.

Bob

Ron Wood · 01-25-2012, 08:17 PM

While I accept and even endorse some of the skepticism surrounding the “Death Head” (DH) marking, I wholeheartedly reject the blanket categorization of all of the Lugers so marked as “fake”.

I would like to debunk the circulating fantasy that all of these examples can be attributed to the efforts of an aging unidentified “retired German gunsmith” for an un-named German importer around 1960. This is an urban legend at best. Fred Datig published his seminal “The Luger Pistol” in 1955. There was no mention of the DH Luger in that first book, but in the revised edition of 1958 he has a photo and write-up of an example. Obviously the photo was taken or surfaced somewhere between 1955 and 1958, certainly well before 1960. You could chalk it up to the failing memory of an 80-odd year old gunsmith who forgot the date he forged a whole bunch of guns with a number of different dies…I prefer to chalk it up to sheer baloney.

As Postino has pointed out, the “cartoonish” insignia of the Freikorps era would lend credence to the crude execution of the DH markings on the Lugers. The creation of markings by rag-tag provisional units during a post war time of turmoil and rebuilding can’t be compared to factory applied markings or properly commissioned works by either Imperial or Nazi German government entities and should not be held up as evidence that it “wasn’t the German way”.

Before someone raises the objection that there is no hard evidence that these are actually Freikorps markings, I will say I agree. However, it is my belief that is the origin of the markings and as Gerben says, you are free to believe whatever you want.

sheepherder · 01-25-2012, 08:26 PM

I just did a google/Image search for "Freikorps" and got hundreds of pics...I saved four showing death's head graphics (trucks, tank, armored car) and all have a 'balloonish' head, which is quite close to the Luger death's heads...

This makes me wonder when we got so spoiled that a proper skull & crossbones had to look like a pirate's flag...Was it during the movies of the 30's??? Errol Flynn as Captain Blood??? Maybe the Freikorps death's heads were the German embodiment of a skull...

Ron Wood · 01-25-2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jared427

But what about the over stampings and the X over the last eagle? Also the X with a line thru it on the trigger guard?

The gun was rebarreled at some point and had a Crown/N commercial firing proof applied. It is this same Crown/N that is over the last eagle on the right side of the reciever. I think I see what you mean by an X over the eagle, but I can't make out if it is an X or just an artifact of the striking of the eagle. The X on the trigger guard has a line beside it not thru it. You find several examples of Imperial inspector's marks with Crown over Fraktur letters having lines either below or beside the marking. It isn't known (at least not to me) what the line indicates, but some surmise that it is an additional mark made by a supervisor or an indication of a relook by the inspector.

alanint · 01-25-2012, 08:34 PM

Vlim mentions these guns were made for a German "Importer"??

Does this mean for importation into Germany or the US? If these guns were destined for the US market, would they not all sport import marks??

sheepherder · 01-25-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Vlim mentions these guns were made for a German "Importer"??

Does this mean for importation into Germany or the US? If these guns were destined for the US market, would they not all sport import marks??

Out, in...Import & export marks get all confused...

Vlim · 01-25-2012, 09:26 PM

It happens whey you try to answer too quickly, while being stuffed with medication

The marking was done, according to German sources (including Kornmayer), for a US dealer by a German gunsmith, in order to have a laugh at the expense of US collectors and boost the prices of pistols that were, by the standards of the day, barely collectible otherwise.

But I think enough has been said about it. We seem to keep going around in circles anyway.
At least the Germans find it amusing

01-24-2012, 08:14 PM	#1
jared427 User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 21 Thanks: 2 Thanked 16 Times in 7 Posts	1917 Death Head I finally got a macro lens for my Nikon so I figured I would share my death head with you. There are some different stampings on it. On the right side of the receiver where the eagle acceptance stamp is. It looks like the last eagle has an X on it and a horizontal nitro stamp. And the trigger guard has a different stamping on it also. Thanks for the input. Jared

01-24-2012, 08:23 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Nice shooting! Really good photo's. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-24-2012, 09:49 PM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I'm going to post the closeup of the chamber totenkopf for future reference... Jared - It is requested that you post pictures directly to LugerForum...Some of our members (the more knowledgeable ones) are behind corporate firewalls that block PhotoBucket, YouTube, SmugMug, etc...and because PhotoBucket 'upgrades' their site regularly (for example, Flash) and anyone not having the latest upgrade can't view the pics... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-24-2012, 09:58 PM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I am a big fan of 'Totenkopf" Lugers...Is this a chamber stamp that has been displayed here before??? Not the gun itself, but the stamping... (I'm assuming the Freikorps stamped rather than engraved the graphics)... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-25-2012, 07:55 PM	#14
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	I remember reading a fascinating thread on this forum about the TK logo. There was a picture of a WW1 German officer with a insignia that matches the cartoon logo seen on some of these lugers. He was reportedly in one of the flamethrower units. Has any WW1 luger ever been seen that is unit marked from one of these German flamethrower outfits,with that same TK logo? The little marking above the skull does look like a hose of some kind. That marking is not on the later Nazi TK and the style of the TK seems different. Just thinking out loud. Gerben is right, you can believe what you want. Bob Attached Thumbnails __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

01-24-2012, 11:32 PM	#5
pitsword User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 459 Thanks: 3,964 Thanked 103 Times in 83 Posts	Gosh, I feel so ..well useless/worthless/numba thun a powndud thum. I do try to be more 'knowledgable", alas I cannot find a corporate wall to protect myself..and now this.

01-25-2012, 11:43 AM	#6
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	Maybe a ring to go along with this gun. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GERMAN-SKULL...item41619f9fe0

01-25-2012, 11:54 AM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Just a reminder. In Germany a retired gun smith has come forward, who claimed he applied these TK markings on behalf of a German importer around 1960. So treat these markings with some reservations and remember that they start to show patina because they have been applied some 60 years ago by now.

01-25-2012, 06:44 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Norme, Nobody is saying that the freikorps units, or others did not apply death head logos to their equipment. So that argument is not a valid one. But, you are free to believe whatever you want. To me it is perfectly clear that most, if not all, DH logos on lugers were applied by the same gun around 1960. Caveat Emptor

01-25-2012, 06:56 PM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Gerben, I haven't contributed to this discussion yet, you must mean forum member Rich (postino). Regards, Norm

01-25-2012, 07:51 PM	#13
jared427 User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 21 Thanks: 2 Thanked 16 Times in 7 Posts	But what about the over stampings and the X over the last eagle? Also the X with a line thru it on the trigger guard?

01-25-2012, 08:17 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	While I accept and even endorse some of the skepticism surrounding the “Death Head” (DH) marking, I wholeheartedly reject the blanket categorization of all of the Lugers so marked as “fake”. I would like to debunk the circulating fantasy that all of these examples can be attributed to the efforts of an aging unidentified “retired German gunsmith” for an un-named German importer around 1960. This is an urban legend at best. Fred Datig published his seminal “The Luger Pistol” in 1955. There was no mention of the DH Luger in that first book, but in the revised edition of 1958 he has a photo and write-up of an example. Obviously the photo was taken or surfaced somewhere between 1955 and 1958, certainly well before 1960. You could chalk it up to the failing memory of an 80-odd year old gunsmith who forgot the date he forged a whole bunch of guns with a number of different dies…I prefer to chalk it up to sheer baloney. As Postino has pointed out, the “cartoonish” insignia of the Freikorps era would lend credence to the crude execution of the DH markings on the Lugers. The creation of markings by rag-tag provisional units during a post war time of turmoil and rebuilding can’t be compared to factory applied markings or properly commissioned works by either Imperial or Nazi German government entities and should not be held up as evidence that it “wasn’t the German way”. Before someone raises the objection that there is no hard evidence that these are actually Freikorps markings, I will say I agree. However, it is my belief that is the origin of the markings and as Gerben says, you are free to believe whatever you want. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-25-2012, 08:26 PM	#16
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I just did a google/Image search for "Freikorps" and got hundreds of pics...I saved four showing death's head graphics (trucks, tank, armored car) and all have a 'balloonish' head, which is quite close to the Luger death's heads... This makes me wonder when we got so spoiled that a proper skull & crossbones had to look like a pirate's flag...Was it during the movies of the 30's??? Errol Flynn as Captain Blood??? Maybe the Freikorps death's heads were the German embodiment of a skull... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-25-2012, 08:34 PM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Vlim mentions these guns were made for a German "Importer"?? Does this mean for importation into Germany or the US? If these guns were destined for the US market, would they not all sport import marks??

01-25-2012, 09:26 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	It happens whey you try to answer too quickly, while being stuffed with medication The marking was done, according to German sources (including Kornmayer), for a US dealer by a German gunsmith, in order to have a laugh at the expense of US collectors and boost the prices of pistols that were, by the standards of the day, barely collectible otherwise. But I think enough has been said about it. We seem to keep going around in circles anyway. At least the Germans find it amusing