Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag... - Page 3

Pete Ebbink · 03-16-2003, 11:16 AM

Did receive a nice PM e-mail from Mike Jones...thanks Mike...!

He did want me to reiterate the fact that on page 209 of his Dad's book, Harry did mention that this was not a Contract luger for the Japanese...

On another note :

The better photo of a similar Japanese luger on page 74 of Still's 3rd. Reich lugers does show some Japanese kangi letter/characters stamped or engraved (?) on the barrel, running along its axis...The Jones' photo does as well, but they do not appear quite as good.

Does anyone know if these kangi characters were translated ? If yes, would appreciate knowing their translation...

I will also bring my copy of the Still book up to Reno. Maybe we can get a Japanese collector/dealer to translate them for us...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 03-16-2003, 01:28 PM

On the gunboards is a section on Japanese guns that I frequent. I will post pictures and ask this question.

ED

Ron Wood · 03-16-2003, 02:38 PM

Pete,
Maybe you can print out a copy of the picture I posted for Alain and take it along too. The barrel markings show up very well.

Ed,
Likewise perhaps you can post the picture on the gunboards Japanese section as well.

Edward Tinker · 03-16-2003, 02:45 PM

Posted both on the gunboards with info on where the photo came from.

I will post a reply after I get it, the guys on the Japanese boards seem like helpful guys.

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 03-16-2003, 06:24 PM

Hello Ron,

Will do, I have nice laser printer printouts of both Alain's pistol and the Still pg. 74 pistol.

To my eye; the kangi characters are identical...

Maybe there is a joke here and the kangi characters say "Engraved In Kansas"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ...just jesting, of course...!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 03-17-2003, 01:41 AM

A reply on the Banzai board says it means:

"Doitsu [German] 14th Year Type"

Any other replies and I will pass them along.

That doesn't make any sense to me, as 14th year type is what the Nambu (after the papa and before the type 94) was called? So even if you used chronological Japanese time frame, the model 1908 would not make sense, unless this gun was adopted or used at the same time period as when the Type 14 Nambu was adopted.

Just another point that these are not true adopted guns of the Nippon military, as calling it a type or model was a true designation. And if the Nambu 14 or 94 were not mummed, then why would a Luger be mummed?

Still if someone has a nice one like those pictured, I will give them a slightly better than shooter price for it, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 03-17-2003, 01:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To my eye; the kangi characters are identical...<hr /></blockquote>They are slightly different:

The second to last character is different, or should I actually say, the second character, because donÃ¢??t they read down to up?

I know they read right to left, but I am unsure if it is down to up or up to down?

Heydrich · 03-17-2003, 03:58 AM

Ed, there is a reason that the Nambu pistols were not mummed, as well as any other Jap officer’s sidearm. Since the officer was required to purchase his own sidearm, it became his property, and not the emperors. So no personal pistol was stamped with the chrysanthemum according to the Japanese exports I have discussed this with. Rifles got the chrysanthemum because they were Army property, and thus the Emperor’s property. Another Japanese collector also brought up the very common sense observation that a bunch of 1940 42 coded Lugers would not have been found in the Eastern theater of operations in the first place. And even if they had been bought by an officer, his pistol would never have been stamped with the mum in addition.

Parallax Discussion

Edward Tinker · 03-17-2003, 04:05 AM

True, good points. I felt as much, but wasn't sure and didn't state it as well.

Ed

John -Melb · 03-17-2003, 06:57 AM

I don't know if Lugers with the Emporer's Chrysamthemum on them are real or not. I agree they are more likely to appear on Dutch Lugers than German ones.

Having said that, I got a LP08 with the Australian Army (D^D) property stamp on it. Imagine that, a DWM marked "Dad and Dave Industries".

Bernard · 03-18-2003, 05:24 PM

Pete - I also want to thank you for starting this discussion. This forum and others are the places for us to learn and at the same time to perhaps resolve some of these controversies! How boring it would be if all the topics were very vanilla, we would probably stop reading (and learning) in a short time.

Regarding these "Mum Lugers" (I won't call them Japanese Lugers), the pictures above and one other I have seen somewhere indicate a very well done stamp. If this was done outside a factory or arsenal, and by an individual, it appears so good I will lose sleep over what other altered pistols are out there. A chamber date or toggle inscription would be no more difficult than these mums. Aaron and I think alike on this one.

Pete Ebbink · 03-20-2003, 12:19 PM

Thanks to Big Norm (thanks very much, Norm...), I do have the original article that was written by Frank Allan in AutoMag last year in July 2002.

In this article, Mr. Allan cites that the Japanese Ordnance Association was asked about the legitimacy of the Mum lugers. This association replied that in conformance to military regulations, handguns were never stamped with the Imperial Crest of Japan (not even on the baby Nambus presented by the Emperor himself...

He also states that a real pair of Colt SA revolvers where presented to the Imperial Family by the US government. These SA have the Mum, but they are placed into the wooden grip panels and not on the metal of the pistols. He states the application of the Mums on these pistols is totally different from those on the Mum lugers, but does not expand on this difference...

Mr. Allan also mentions how the luger and the Nambus were historically "confused" in surrender reports by Allied staff during the war...since Nambus looked similar to lugers and most Allied staff had seen lugers since WWI but not very many Nambus...

Finally, I have sent an e-mail to Mr. Allan; inviting him to join us on the Luger Forum so he might read this discussion thread and maybe add some reply...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Roadkill · 03-20-2003, 09:04 PM

"Takeichi Nishi, of Japan, was an army lieutenant when he won the Olympic title in Los Angeles (1932)and made many American friends, among them the actor Douglas Fairbanks. Then came Pearl Harbor. Nishi was promoted to Japanese colonel in the Second World War and when the US forces reached Iwo Jima Island, he joined a mass suicide."

Good example of how a Japanese officer would have had the opportunity to obtain a US firearm for personal use, I'm sure there were more here prior to WWII. Must have also been in Germany too.

rk

Johnny C. Kitchens · 03-20-2003, 10:39 PM

Yamamoto the man behind Pearl Harbor went to Harvard and traveled over much of the country...

John Sabato · 03-21-2003, 04:50 PM

Pete,

Mr Allen IS a registered member of the forum, but he hasn't posted in a very long time. Perhaps your email will prompt him to spend a little more time with us.

Big Norm · 03-23-2003, 12:55 AM

Pete,
I figured that you would make good use of Mr. Allens original discussion of the Mum Luger. Because of its documentation, I feel that it carries a bit more authority than his second discussion in AutoMag. The bottom line is that Lugerheads should not spend big bucks on a 'rare' Luger without doing a heck of a lot studying first. We all work too hard getting that money just to spend it on a counterfeit.
Maybe what you should do is post the four different styles on Mum Lugers that Mr. Allen drew in his article. I also noticed that all the Mum Luger pictures had different serial numbers. This suggests that someone had a sort of assembly line going. This was not a one shot thing. So the Japanese characters and the Mums would all look the same.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 03-23-2003, 01:39 AM

Bernard,
yes, there are a lot of counterfeit Lugers out there. Working off of my memory, I believe that AutoMag has shown KU's and Kreighoffs being counterfeited. There also has been a large number of counterfeit Model 1914 navy Lugers posted on this forum and mentioned on Jan Stills web site. While I am not necessarily against the restoration of Lugers, I would never buy a particularly rare and expensive one that has been restored, no matter how well the restoration was done. AutoMag calls these cheats a "cottage industry". Some of these quick buck artists are very good at their disgusting "hobby".

Try reading everything that Tom Armstrong writes on this forum and see what he does to authenticate his guns. The man is good.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 03-23-2003, 04:03 PM

No luck with the Mum barrel translation at the Reno gun show this weekend.

The Las Vegas dealer of Japanese weapons and swords does not read Japanese...

My wife will try a friend in Washington State who lives in a Shinto shrine near Mt. Pilchuck...but he is not "wired" so we will go the old US mail route...

Regards,

Pete...

Navy · 03-23-2003, 05:49 PM

Big Norm,
You, sir, are too kind.
Tom A

John Sabato · 03-24-2003, 12:07 PM

I have a new neighbor whose wife is Japanese but I haven't been able to catch them at home since this message thread started... As soon as I do I will find out if she can read the barrel inscription.

03-16-2003, 01:28 PM	#42
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	On the gunboards is a section on Japanese guns that I frequent. I will post pictures and ask this question. ED __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-16-2003, 02:38 PM	#43
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Pete, Maybe you can print out a copy of the picture I posted for Alain and take it along too. The barrel markings show up very well. Ed, Likewise perhaps you can post the picture on the gunboards Japanese section as well. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-16-2003, 02:45 PM	#44
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Posted both on the gunboards with info on where the photo came from. I will post a reply after I get it, the guys on the Japanese boards seem like helpful guys. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-17-2003, 01:41 AM	#46
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	A reply on the Banzai board says it means: "Doitsu [German] 14th Year Type" Any other replies and I will pass them along. That doesn't make any sense to me, as 14th year type is what the Nambu (after the papa and before the type 94) was called? So even if you used chronological Japanese time frame, the model 1908 would not make sense, unless this gun was adopted or used at the same time period as when the Type 14 Nambu was adopted. Just another point that these are not true adopted guns of the Nippon military, as calling it a type or model was a true designation. And if the Nambu 14 or 94 were not mummed, then why would a Luger be mummed? Still if someone has a nice one like those pictured, I will give them a slightly better than shooter price for it, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-17-2003, 01:59 AM	#47
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">To my eye; the kangi characters are identical...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">They are slightly different: The second to last character is different, or should I actually say, the second character, because donÃ¢??t they read down to up? I know they read right to left, but I am unsure if it is down to up or up to down? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-16-2003, 11:16 AM	#41
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Did receive a nice PM e-mail from Mike Jones...thanks Mike...! He did want me to reiterate the fact that on page 209 of his Dad's book, Harry did mention that this was not a Contract luger for the Japanese... On another note : The better photo of a similar Japanese luger on page 74 of Still's 3rd. Reich lugers does show some Japanese kangi letter/characters stamped or engraved (?) on the barrel, running along its axis...The Jones' photo does as well, but they do not appear quite as good. Does anyone know if these kangi characters were translated ? If yes, would appreciate knowing their translation... I will also bring my copy of the Still book up to Reno. Maybe we can get a Japanese collector/dealer to translate them for us... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-16-2003, 06:24 PM	#45
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron, Will do, I have nice laser printer printouts of both Alain's pistol and the Still pg. 74 pistol. To my eye; the kangi characters are identical... Maybe there is a joke here and the kangi characters say "Engraved In Kansas"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ...just jesting, of course...! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-17-2003, 03:58 AM	#48
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, there is a reason that the Nambu pistols were not mummed, as well as any other Jap officer’s sidearm. Since the officer was required to purchase his own sidearm, it became his property, and not the emperors. So no personal pistol was stamped with the chrysanthemum according to the Japanese exports I have discussed this with. Rifles got the chrysanthemum because they were Army property, and thus the Emperor’s property. Another Japanese collector also brought up the very common sense observation that a bunch of 1940 42 coded Lugers would not have been found in the Eastern theater of operations in the first place. And even if they had been bought by an officer, his pistol would never have been stamped with the mum in addition. Parallax Discussion

03-17-2003, 04:05 AM	#49
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	True, good points. I felt as much, but wasn't sure and didn't state it as well. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-17-2003, 06:57 AM	#50
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know if Lugers with the Emporer's Chrysamthemum on them are real or not. I agree they are more likely to appear on Dutch Lugers than German ones. Having said that, I got a LP08 with the Australian Army (D^D) property stamp on it. Imagine that, a DWM marked "Dad and Dave Industries".

03-18-2003, 05:24 PM	#51
Bernard User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete - I also want to thank you for starting this discussion. This forum and others are the places for us to learn and at the same time to perhaps resolve some of these controversies! How boring it would be if all the topics were very vanilla, we would probably stop reading (and learning) in a short time. Regarding these "Mum Lugers" (I won't call them Japanese Lugers), the pictures above and one other I have seen somewhere indicate a very well done stamp. If this was done outside a factory or arsenal, and by an individual, it appears so good I will lose sleep over what other altered pistols are out there. A chamber date or toggle inscription would be no more difficult than these mums. Aaron and I think alike on this one.

03-20-2003, 12:19 PM	#52
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks to Big Norm (thanks very much, Norm...), I do have the original article that was written by Frank Allan in AutoMag last year in July 2002. In this article, Mr. Allan cites that the Japanese Ordnance Association was asked about the legitimacy of the Mum lugers. This association replied that in conformance to military regulations, handguns were never stamped with the Imperial Crest of Japan (not even on the baby Nambus presented by the Emperor himself... He also states that a real pair of Colt SA revolvers where presented to the Imperial Family by the US government. These SA have the Mum, but they are placed into the wooden grip panels and not on the metal of the pistols. He states the application of the Mums on these pistols is totally different from those on the Mum lugers, but does not expand on this difference... Mr. Allan also mentions how the luger and the Nambus were historically "confused" in surrender reports by Allied staff during the war...since Nambus looked similar to lugers and most Allied staff had seen lugers since WWI but not very many Nambus... Finally, I have sent an e-mail to Mr. Allan; inviting him to join us on the Luger Forum so he might read this discussion thread and maybe add some reply... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-20-2003, 09:04 PM	#53
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	"Takeichi Nishi, of Japan, was an army lieutenant when he won the Olympic title in Los Angeles (1932)and made many American friends, among them the actor Douglas Fairbanks. Then came Pearl Harbor. Nishi was promoted to Japanese colonel in the Second World War and when the US forces reached Iwo Jima Island, he joined a mass suicide." Good example of how a Japanese officer would have had the opportunity to obtain a US firearm for personal use, I'm sure there were more here prior to WWII. Must have also been in Germany too. rk

03-20-2003, 10:39 PM	#54
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Yamamoto the man behind Pearl Harbor went to Harvard and traveled over much of the country... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

03-21-2003, 04:50 PM	#55
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Pete, Mr Allen IS a registered member of the forum, but he hasn't posted in a very long time. Perhaps your email will prompt him to spend a little more time with us. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-23-2003, 12:55 AM	#56
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, I figured that you would make good use of Mr. Allens original discussion of the Mum Luger. Because of its documentation, I feel that it carries a bit more authority than his second discussion in AutoMag. The bottom line is that Lugerheads should not spend big bucks on a 'rare' Luger without doing a heck of a lot studying first. We all work too hard getting that money just to spend it on a counterfeit. Maybe what you should do is post the four different styles on Mum Lugers that Mr. Allen drew in his article. I also noticed that all the Mum Luger pictures had different serial numbers. This suggests that someone had a sort of assembly line going. This was not a one shot thing. So the Japanese characters and the Mums would all look the same. Big Norm

03-23-2003, 01:39 AM	#57
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Bernard, yes, there are a lot of counterfeit Lugers out there. Working off of my memory, I believe that AutoMag has shown KU's and Kreighoffs being counterfeited. There also has been a large number of counterfeit Model 1914 navy Lugers posted on this forum and mentioned on Jan Stills web site. While I am not necessarily against the restoration of Lugers, I would never buy a particularly rare and expensive one that has been restored, no matter how well the restoration was done. AutoMag calls these cheats a "cottage industry". Some of these quick buck artists are very good at their disgusting "hobby". Try reading everything that Tom Armstrong writes on this forum and see what he does to authenticate his guns. The man is good. Big Norm

03-23-2003, 04:03 PM	#58
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	No luck with the Mum barrel translation at the Reno gun show this weekend. The Las Vegas dealer of Japanese weapons and swords does not read Japanese... My wife will try a friend in Washington State who lives in a Shinto shrine near Mt. Pilchuck...but he is not "wired" so we will go the old US mail route... Regards, Pete...

03-23-2003, 05:49 PM	#59
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Big Norm, You, sir, are too kind. Tom A

03-24-2003, 12:07 PM	#60
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I have a new neighbor whose wife is Japanese but I haven't been able to catch them at home since this message thread started... As soon as I do I will find out if she can read the barrel inscription. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*