"Black Widow" Years/Codes

stantheboltactionman · 01-21-2005, 09:38 PM

Newbie Question,
I am sure this has been covered before somewhere on this forum...But I am getting too old and lazy to find it!!

Q: What are the years and codes of the so called "Black Widow" Luger?

Q: Can any Luger within the correct years/codes with black bakelite grips
be considered a "Black Widow"?

Q: Is there a certain suffix/Block that is assigned to the so called "Black Widow"?

Just curious, as to why "Black Widow" type Lugers sell for more than their walnut gripped cousins.
Thanks,
Stan

Dwight Gruber · 01-21-2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stantheboltactionman
Just curious, as to why "Black Widow" type Lugers sell for more than their walnut gripped cousins.

A successful marketing ploy.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 01-21-2005, 10:12 PM

Q: What are the years and codes of the so called "Black Widow" Luger?

There are certain years, but it is not a true variation.

Q: Can any Luger within the correct years/codes with black bakelite grips
be considered a "Black Widow"?

NO, see Dwights reply

Q: Is there a certain suffix/Block that is assigned to the so called "Black Widow"?

No

There is lots of information here on the forum, go ahead and read through them...

stantheboltactionman · 01-21-2005, 10:33 PM

Dwight,Edward...
Thanks for the replies!!
SOOOO....If I pay more for a "Black Widow" ..... all I would really be paying extra for are the black bakelite grips... Sounds hosed up to me!!
I like wood better anyway.
Thanks,
Stan

Edward Tinker · 01-21-2005, 10:35 PM

I think so Stan, and if you've had a week like me, you'd be old too! Oh, that is what you said!

But... But, since now many USA collectors beleive it is a variation, they DO go for more than just a normal gun. I like wood better too

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 01-21-2005, 11:23 PM

Stan,

To be a bit less glib, late in 1940 wood for pistol grips and gun stocks began to be in short supply in Germany. The army decided to accept plastic as an acceptable substitute material for P-08 grips. Evidence is that they began to appear very sporadically as early as 1940. Use of plastic for Luger grips began in ernest in 1941.

Black bakelite grips were assembled onto byf-41 and byf-42 Lugers on an as-available basis. There was no rhyme or reason to this, it was simply a matter of which grips were available on the assembly line at any given moment.

At the same time the Haenel Schmeisser company began to manufacture Luger magazines with black bakelite magazine bases. These were the standard magazines for Lugers in 1941-42.

Statisically there were many fewer byf-41/42 Lugers with plastic grips. Still, in "Third Reich Lugers", estimates that 20% of production wore these grips. To enhance the value of his sales stock, noted Luger dealer and collector Ralph Shattuck coined the term "Black Widow" to differentiate these plastic-gripped guns from the more common wood-gripped examples and to excite the imagination about their use.

There is no way to determine which Lugers originally had bakelite grips, and it is safe to say that the liklihood is strong that any given byf-41/42 "Black Widow" has had its grips applied in the past few decades*. The trade in original black bakelite Luger grips is thriving--originals bring a lot of money by themselves--and there is an active cottage industry forging these grips to artificially enhance a byf Luger's value.

*(This is not to say that there are not Lugers out there wearing original black bakelite grips. Without provenance there is no way to know.)

--Dwight

MikeP · 01-23-2005, 08:28 PM

In the 60's when lugers were much cheaper and more commonly found in original condition, some were distained by collectors.
Some of these included unit marked and "double dates" also Erfurts for their crudeness.
At the bottom of the heap were the late nazi guns with the cheapo grips and the crude looking black finish.
A major dealer coined the phrase "Black Widow." I think originally this referred to the '41s.
The fish bit and the beat goes on.

stantheboltactionman · 01-23-2005, 08:58 PM

Thanks to all who replied...
What I have bought from a fellow Luger collector is a 1940/42 with black bakelite grips... He did not call it a "Black Widow". Or price it as such.
Just a "1940 Mauser Luger in excellent original condition."
Based on your feedback, I assumed the grips did not originally come on the gun, but did not care as I have a set of original walnut grips to replace them with.
Thanks,
Stan

pipeman45 · 01-24-2005, 01:49 AM

Stan. From what I've read in books and from one of the post here,those grips could be original to that gun. They did started useing them in 1940.

Dwight Gruber · 01-24-2005, 03:51 AM

Stan,

Are the grips black or brown? If possible, please post good, sharp pictures of the outside of the grips, and detailed photos of the backs.

Still reports that perhaps 2% of 1940 42-code Lugers came with black plastic grips, some with coarse brown Krieghoff type. Since this year's production is not normally considered in the "Black Widow" category, and the circumstances under which you purchased it, the grips may very well be original. Black Bakelite Luger grips have identifiable characteristics, the photos will all those here knowledgeable to express an opinion on the authenticity of the grips themselves.

What is the magazine with this gun like?

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 01-24-2005, 09:38 AM

I'm of the opinion that the BPB/FXO mags were the standard second issue mag for some 41s and most 1942 PO8s, as you don't see many metal bottomed FXO mags with a + (plus) marking. Anyone have a 1942 military (police are the exception) with two "righteous" matching mags? TH

stantheboltactionman · 01-24-2005, 04:57 PM

Dwight,
The grips are black. The gun was purchased from Ralph Shattuck's World of Lugers several years ago. I have some pictures of the assembled gun
but don't have a camera here. I will try to figure out how to post the pictures.
The magazine is aluminum based pinned in center,matching serial to gun, plus marked. also marked WaA37 and "122" Looks to be matching (OLD).
Also gun and magazine are "f" suffix.
Thanks,
Stan

01-21-2005, 09:38 PM	#1
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Black Widow" Years/Codes Newbie Question, I am sure this has been covered before somewhere on this forum...But I am getting too old and lazy to find it!! Q: What are the years and codes of the so called "Black Widow" Luger? Q: Can any Luger within the correct years/codes with black bakelite grips be considered a "Black Widow"? Q: Is there a certain suffix/Block that is assigned to the so called "Black Widow"? Just curious, as to why "Black Widow" type Lugers sell for more than their walnut gripped cousins. Thanks, Stan

01-21-2005, 10:12 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Re: "Black Widow" Years/Codes Q: What are the years and codes of the so called "Black Widow" Luger? There are certain years, but it is not a true variation. Q: Can any Luger within the correct years/codes with black bakelite grips be considered a "Black Widow"? NO, see Dwights reply Q: Is there a certain suffix/Block that is assigned to the so called "Black Widow"? No There is lots of information here on the forum, go ahead and read through them...

01-21-2005, 10:33 PM	#4
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight,Edward... Thanks for the replies!! SOOOO....If I pay more for a "Black Widow" ..... all I would really be paying extra for are the black bakelite grips... Sounds hosed up to me!! I like wood better anyway. Thanks, Stan __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time,a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer,our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolph Hitler, 1935

01-21-2005, 10:35 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I think so Stan, and if you've had a week like me, you'd be old too! Oh, that is what you said! But... But, since now many USA collectors beleive it is a variation, they DO go for more than just a normal gun. I like wood better too Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-23-2005, 08:58 PM	#8
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all who replied... What I have bought from a fellow Luger collector is a 1940/42 with black bakelite grips... He did not call it a "Black Widow". Or price it as such. Just a "1940 Mauser Luger in excellent original condition." Based on your feedback, I assumed the grips did not originally come on the gun, but did not care as I have a set of original walnut grips to replace them with. Thanks, Stan __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time,a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer,our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolph Hitler, 1935

01-21-2005, 11:23 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Stan, To be a bit less glib, late in 1940 wood for pistol grips and gun stocks began to be in short supply in Germany. The army decided to accept plastic as an acceptable substitute material for P-08 grips. Evidence is that they began to appear very sporadically as early as 1940. Use of plastic for Luger grips began in ernest in 1941. Black bakelite grips were assembled onto byf-41 and byf-42 Lugers on an as-available basis. There was no rhyme or reason to this, it was simply a matter of which grips were available on the assembly line at any given moment. At the same time the Haenel Schmeisser company began to manufacture Luger magazines with black bakelite magazine bases. These were the standard magazines for Lugers in 1941-42. Statisically there were many fewer byf-41/42 Lugers with plastic grips. Still, in "Third Reich Lugers", estimates that 20% of production wore these grips. To enhance the value of his sales stock, noted Luger dealer and collector Ralph Shattuck coined the term "Black Widow" to differentiate these plastic-gripped guns from the more common wood-gripped examples and to excite the imagination about their use. There is no way to determine which Lugers originally had bakelite grips, and it is safe to say that the liklihood is strong that any given byf-41/42 "Black Widow" has had its grips applied in the past few decades. The trade in original black bakelite Luger grips is thriving--originals bring a lot of money by themselves--and there is an active cottage industry forging these grips to artificially enhance a byf Luger's value. (This is not to say that there are not Lugers out there wearing original black bakelite grips. Without provenance there is no way to know.) --Dwight

01-23-2005, 08:28 PM	#7
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	In the 60's when lugers were much cheaper and more commonly found in original condition, some were distained by collectors. Some of these included unit marked and "double dates" also Erfurts for their crudeness. At the bottom of the heap were the late nazi guns with the cheapo grips and the crude looking black finish. A major dealer coined the phrase "Black Widow." I think originally this referred to the '41s. The fish bit and the beat goes on.

01-24-2005, 01:49 AM	#9
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Stan. From what I've read in books and from one of the post here,those grips could be original to that gun. They did started useing them in 1940. __________________ Dave

01-24-2005, 03:51 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Stan, Are the grips black or brown? If possible, please post good, sharp pictures of the outside of the grips, and detailed photos of the backs. Still reports that perhaps 2% of 1940 42-code Lugers came with black plastic grips, some with coarse brown Krieghoff type. Since this year's production is not normally considered in the "Black Widow" category, and the circumstances under which you purchased it, the grips may very well be original. Black Bakelite Luger grips have identifiable characteristics, the photos will all those here knowledgeable to express an opinion on the authenticity of the grips themselves. What is the magazine with this gun like? --Dwight

01-24-2005, 09:38 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I'm of the opinion that the BPB/FXO mags were the standard second issue mag for some 41s and most 1942 PO8s, as you don't see many metal bottomed FXO mags with a + (plus) marking. Anyone have a 1942 military (police are the exception) with two "righteous" matching mags? TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

01-24-2005, 04:57 PM	#12
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, The grips are black. The gun was purchased from Ralph Shattuck's World of Lugers several years ago. I have some pictures of the assembled gun but don't have a camera here. I will try to figure out how to post the pictures. The magazine is aluminum based pinned in center,matching serial to gun, plus marked. also marked WaA37 and "122" Looks to be matching (OLD). Also gun and magazine are "f" suffix. Thanks, Stan __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time,a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer,our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolph Hitler, 1935