The one that got away

[grapppa]

Attended an auction this weekend to bid on a 1940 HK.

Here is the description:

Kreighoff mod. P08 ser.# 10740. Rare German Luger 9mm semi-auto. military pistol with a 4" barrel. Receiver dated 1940. Toggle marked "H K Kreighoff Suhl" with the anchor/dagger. Reportedly made for the Luftwaffe. 100% correct and matching. Late proof marks. Excellent bore and action. Strong to medium straw colors on small parts. 90% original dark salt blue with just a hint of rust at spots. Most of the finish wear is at the muzzle. Excellent original checkered black plastic grips. Correct "FXO" magazine. Includes an extra "FXO" magazine with a damaged plastic bottom. Since only about 4000 of these Kreighoffs were produced between 1938 and 1945, this is an opportunity to add this very scarce variant to your collection! (C&R)

Here are the pix


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Got there early to check it out armed with the research on HKs available on this forum... This was the first HK I ever saw and overall was stunned by the beauty of this firearm. The pictures do not give the right impression; the gun is darker...the grips are black; the pictures give a slight brownish impression - I got the distinct impression that the gun was not fired much at all as the inside surfaces of the frame looked newish. If you've ever bought fine sports cars you know the feeling you get when you are looking at something that is very original an unmessedwith. SN 10740. The gun was much more pristine than the pictures indicate. The locking bolt had the proper buffing canted line - blue variations on toggle ears on frame showed evidence of heat tempering - correct proofs - including on small parts - beveled edge on rear toggle link. Could not dissemble gun but saw proofs on center toggle link. I was confident that this was authentic.

Decided to bid up to $2700 - dont ask why. Bidding started at 1000 went to 500 then back up quickly in increments of 100 to 2000. Quickly went to 2500, paused then went to 3000 quickly. Only 2 bidders now over 3000. In 20 seconds went to 3500 and SOLD at $3500.

I dont know, but I think I goofed up royally underestimating the value of this gun. I think now that the bidding would have gone $4000 easily. To make matters worse, had to leave behind a 1942 cea holster in very good condition 'cause I had to get back to NJ to coach my girls bball team. Went home frustrated and feeling that I missed the chance of a lifetime.

<end crying>

[drbuster]

Dear grappa. What auction was this? Would like to know as these 1940+ HK's are changing hands at higher and higher prices. I personally saw a near 100% 1942 dated HK go at a recent Reno show for over $8K!

[grapppa]

Was in Pennsylvania... Small town gun auction. Sounds like it was the bargain I think it was...

[Big Norm]

Grapppa,
I am not certain and my judgement may be swayed because of the photography. The magazine release on the right side looks blued. This should be strawed. Something about the toggle makes me think that its been buffed. The right and left edges of the center toggle look like they might be rounded. If this gun has been restored or touched-up, then the $3500 would be about the right price. Many people will try to pretty up a Kreighoff in hopes of getting more money for the gun and they only end up destroying a valuable gun. I think that on the pricier Lugers, it may be better to leave the gun alone. But thats a debate that has been going on on the forum for a long time. It pays to be able to detect a restored gun. Many restorers are pretty good. But a Kreighoff could be an expensive mistake if you paid original price for a restored/touched-up gun.
The bidding that you witnessed is part of the fun of watching a gun auction. Everybody seems to want to play chicken on the first bid. After that, holy hell frequently breaks out and bidders go crazy. Its fun to watch but it can be expensive to get involved in it. Always go into an auction with a maximum price in your head. Then if you lose, well... you just lose.
Big Norm

[John D.]

Hi Big Norm and Grappa..!

A few comments... The 1940 variation is one of the most prevalent of the "late production" post the original contract of Military 10,000 Krieghoffs - and the majority of the 1938 production - and all of 1939 were "Commercial". The exception being the estimated 50 "1938" Krieghoffs, of which there are fewer then 21 that have been verified to even exist.

Anyway - 1940s are going for $5000+, and ones in the condition you see ar fetching $6000+ in the market today. The $3500 hammer price is even lower then a "common" "1936" or "1937" production - which today, are typically in the $4000+ plus price.

OK - now start kicking yourself...

As well - the mag release is correct - especially for later production HKs. While some strawed releases are noted throughout the production range, with straw being more prevalent in early production, clearly most later production were fire blued (in various hues, by the way). The takedown spring - while in the photo is strawed, can be correct either way as well, especially in 1940 - which could be construed as a "hodge podge" production year for Krieghoff for several reasons.

Also - the center toggle link, to me - looks just fine on the example, as do the buff marks on all the toggle train that I can see.

My guess - based on what I see in the pictures - is that this is an unboosted HK - but, if you were the purchaser, I'd also advise you to get it verified as authentic...

Next time - but as Norm notes - "buyer beware" at an auction!!!!

John D.

[Big Norm]

John,
thank you for the clarification about the magazine release sometimes being strawed and sometimes being fire-blued. But I have to admit that this is one of the reasons that I am leary about buying Krieghoffs. Just too much counterfeiting and too many legitimate variants in production. A mistake can be just too expensive and trusted "experts" are just too hard to find. I have a few HK's but I doubt that I will add any more to my small collection.

I still think that the bottom edge of the center toggle in the pictured example looks rounded. I guess that I will have to put that cork back on Ron's lunch.
Big Norm

[John D.]

Originally posted by Big Norm
J....that this is one of the reasons that I am leary about buying Krieghoffs...

Norm,

I'm not certain that's a Krieghoff specific statement. Any casual collector of virtually any Luger variation - runs the same risk of being "taken", whether it's a bogus Krieghoff or a "boosted" Luger from any era (which really are the same, IMHO). Whether it precludes some from learning what is "correct" and "incorrect" is up to that individual. For that - there is no substitute for looking at as many in one variation as possible - and where information is sparse, keeping somewhat complete notes on active research on minute details.

As for me - I've enjoyed collecting HKs for now over 20 years, and I too, own "a few" - and for that, I've seen my share of "late production" Krieghoffs (like "1960" manufacture ). However, rather then withdraw from collecting that variation altogether, I'm rather conservative in what I'll accept as "correct". As for the mag release itself, it's well documented as to being correct in fire-blued and strawed. Over the past decade - that has been narrowed down to fairly accurate estimations of the percentages of either for each HK production year, which are purely based on verified pieces. Is that analogous to actual production? Probably as close as we can get given the few examples that survive "unmolested" today.

As well, and as with the toggle - there are other signs as to the veracity of the part and whether it should be correct or not. In that way - I don't see Krieghoff's as more prone to being "boosted" or "counterfeited" any more than many of the other Luger variations that exist today. In in some ways - I could argue that they are less prone - given the difficulty of forging the tell-tales of how the factory original HKs were manufactured.

'Course - I am biased on this subject

John

[Edward Tinker]

But Kriegs are so much more, I take a chance on a WW1 piece that has a reblued trigger (only) and how much am I out money-wise?

But if I buy a Krieg for $5K that turns out to be reblued, damn...

[John D.]

And if I buy many early production Lugers - I'm out the same - or more..??? Or even a good "K" date? Or even most Navy Lugers? Or, even.. Nevermind, you get the idea...

Again - IMHO - most that get "burned" by faked/boosted HKs buy one without doing the research on what is "correct" - what to look for, what should the blue look like, what are the proper machining marks, stamp variations for that production year, etc.. So again, I think that's true of *any* variation - certainly not just HKs.

My advice is - as always to anyone - do the research. Nowadays - that's a whole lot easier given Forums like this and Jan's than when I (and most of us) started way back. As well - pictures are worth a thousand words - and I'd suggest that taking the time to research any variation (by buying books or reading these Forums) will save potentially thousands of dollars and at the same time, itâ??s a lot of fun

In short - the resources both with Jan's Forum and this Forum are a huge asset to any level of collector - and they don't cost a damned thing And - it only takes just a moment to hit "search" - or go to the Gallery and look at some fairly detailed pictures of almost any Luger variation including HKs

So - my "pat" answer is "the time and money invested in research sure helps know that the $5,000 HK is a "reblue" or not". It all depends what one wants to collect and the amount of time one is willing to invest??

John D.

[Edward Tinker]

Oh, I agree with you, and if I started collecting Kriegs, I would study like a son of a gun before hand. But any year, or for that matter, any gun, requires a heck of a lot of good research not to get taken. And researching will allow you to get a gun that is a variation and NOT a reblue or whatever.

Hey, did I tell you I ordered 2 boxes of 30 Luger for my new 6 inch barrrel? (the one Hugh did, but was such a pain for him to do)??

So, if ... you make it out here, we can go pop some caps?

Also, sounds like a large gathering going to Reno? Russ, James f from BC, Jan Still, and I am just going to make reservations too.

Ed

[John D.]

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
....Hey, did I tell you I ordered 2 boxes of 30 Luger for my new 6 inch barrrel? (the one Hugh did, but was such a pain for him to do)??

Hey Ed..!!

I have some .30 Luger brass (I think???) kicking around.. Haven't got a .30 I want to shoot, but if you need some, I'll take a look for it..?? Just my way of saying "Thanks!!" for all you do (whatevertheheckthatwouldbe... )

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
...Also, sounds like a large gathering going to Reno? Russ, James f from BC, Jan Still, and I am just going to make reservations too.

Waitaminute.. You want me to pay for a flight to Reno so I can buy you dinner???

Actually - when is Reno??? Jen and I are planning to get away to Florida in May to see my folks (they are paying - that's the good news. The bad news is I suppose we'll be obligated to spend all our time with them - which is always an "adventure", especially when my Dad is driving... )

Best to you!

John D.

[Edward Tinker]

April 8-10 I believe is the one the guys are going to.

April 8-10, 2005

The Big Reno Show
(Lou Fascio, Inc.)
The Reno Hilton
Reno, NV.
Fri. and Sat. 9-6, Sun. 9-3


I can get you about 3500 airmiles before then

Ed