1908 Bulgarian

[southriv]

Gentlemen,

Here are pics of my 1908 Bulgarian. I bought this recently from a dealer in my area. I am still having some questions about the originality of the finish. I will freely admit my inexperience here. Iâ??ve tried to balance the color in the pics (basically desaturate) to show an accurate color. If anything, there is still a bit too much of a warm cast to the color in some of the pics. The only wear is on the side plate, the edges of the top, the muzzle and the front grip strap â?? this is just starting to turn plum and there is wear at the base.

Iâ??ve opened this up to show as much as I can. The grips match and the mag is wood bottom, unnumbered. Not shown is the extractor, which is marked in Cryllic. Everything is very crisp. I don't think its a refinish because there are no there nicks, dings etc. that would had the obvious appearance of being removed/polished off, etc. during a major clean - up & refinish. The inside is also just too clean (not restored clean but cared for clean) and the pistol does have some wear typical of holster wear, but slighly different than what I have seen in the usual PO8 holsters - mostly at the lower front strap. (I understand that the Bulgarian Holster is very different). Regardless, I'm still a bit nervous because I've been told that Bulgarian 1908s in this condition are very rare. Also, the curious â??6â?� puzzles me, though. It is under the takedown lever on the receiver and on the underside of the rear toggle link.

Any opinions, etc. would be welcome...also, my apologies for all these photos & if they take a long time to load. I'm still working out how to post on this forum from a Mac

Bob

[Ron Wood]

I have owned two 1908 Bulgarians, a first series like yours and my current second series. Both in nice condition but not in the pristine condition of your Luger. Without holding it in my hands in the proper light I could not say for sure, but from your photos it looks like you may have found an outstanding example. The one thing that gives me a little hesitation are the small nicks on the sharp corners. It could be a function of the lighting but it appears that they all are smoothly blued all the way to the bottom. There is no "upset" of the metal or bare/discolored metal showing in any that I see. Also I do not see any "toggle slap" marks at the rear of the frame, indicating that it has been fired very little, if at all. What does the bore look like? It would seem that it should be as pristine as the rest of the gun.

Other than that, the rest of the metalwork looks exactly like I would expect for a piece that has been well maintained and preserved. The dried lubricant on the "in the white" portions of the frame and receiver even looks ancient. You very well may have found a real jewel.

One last item. Would it be possible for you to post a straight-on picture of the bottom of the trigger guard where it transitions into the front grip strap? Thanks.

[Imperial Arms]

In my opinion, so far so good. I would not worry about the '6' under the rear toggle - that appears to be an inspectors/assembly line number.

I like the small amount of patina which shows that it is original. Could you please provide a (better) image of the front and rear grip straps.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

Bob, what camera are you using, outstanding photos!

[John Sabato]

I think this gun is in remarkable condition for it 's age... and with both Ron Wood's and Albert Beliard's (Imperial Arms) blessings... it seems you have found a real treasure...

I highly recommend that you not shoot this outstanding example, but preserve it's current conditiion... clean it gently and display it proudly.

May I ask which dealer you purchased this treasure from?

[southriv]

Thanks folks,

I'm going to continue to play devil's advocate here. I'm still not entirely convinced. John, I'm going to PM you the dealer's name & what I paid -you are welcome to share this with the others who have chimed in - or anyone can ask me for the info.

I've posted some more pics - pro & Con. The first three show wear on the receiver/slide area. This is that plum color we are so familiar with. Note the shininess/wear at the top of the frame where there should (?) be some toggle slap. The front strap is difficult to photograph, but it shows the wear at the bottom and the beginnings of a spot of rust freckling in the wear area. The rest of the front strap is almost going to plum and has (seen under a powerful Optivisor) just the beginnings of some freckling. The forth photo is per Ron's request.

Okay, that was the positive -now for the question mark/debatable stuff. The lack of a definitive toggle slap mark has me concerned. There is discoloration and minimal wear. I tried to slip a piece of paper under with out using the extra slack (pulling the toggle back) and could not get the paper to fit. However, comparing to other DWMs, the curve down is different because that end is ground off to take the traditional lanyard loop off.

Now the possible negatives. The bore is pitted, but the groves are there and strong. All I can say is that I have ruined a barrel with military corrosive (decades ago). Next, the screws holding the grips look older - then again, they are in the most prominent wear area of this piece and the grips themselves (matching) are in very nice shape except for the wear near the screws and front strap. Last, and this worries me the most - the front sight has more wear than the barrel and where it mounts, there appears to be some corrosion marks which may or may not be blued over - hard to tell. There is one more curiosity - two proof marks on the front of the sight mount. The left look like an arrow pointing NE and the one to the right looks like a circle with a bar on the bottom.

Ed, I use a Canon Digital Rebel with Canonâ??s EF 50mm Macro. Itâ??s the best lens in its class. Thanks for the compliments on the photos â?? actually, if I spent more time on backdrop, lighting & shooting aperture priority on a tripod, I could have done better.

Bob


BTW Iâ??ve been having internet access problems, so I may be erratic in getting back.

[Ron Wood]

Southriv,

Thank you for your most excellent photos. I am afraid they have only reinforced the slight doubts that I had, and I share your concern.

The demarcation at the transition of the trigger guard to the front grip strap is quite clearly defined on an original finish gun. In your photo this line is softened and would seem to indicate a refinish at some point. Some of the other intersections of two planes, e.g. the front of the frame and the heel of the butt, also have a softer look than I would expect.

The lack of any toggle slap remains vexing. The blued-over pitting that you noted on the front sight block is not a good sign. My front sight block is marked with a â??7â?�, and I think that your â??arrowâ?� might also be a 7.

You state that â??However, comparing to other DWMs, the curve down is different because that end is ground off to take the traditional lanyard loop offâ?�. Actually the piece was manufactured without a lanyard loop, so the loop and indent under the loop never existed and therefore were not ground off. The curve is a little smoother because there was no loop to interfere with the final polish but there is no ground off reduction in the amount of metal.

The interior of the piece looks original, but I fear that at some time in the past portions of the exterior have been cosmetically enhanced. If that is the case, it is a shame because I suspect it was quite nice without enhancement. Some folks want their nice pieces to look brand new, so they will have them touched up. I do not think the enhancement was performed recently since there has been some â??agingâ?� that has occurred. Of course this only makes it more difficult to detect a touchup, and 10 or 20 years from now I think it will be nearly impossible to tell.

I do not want to be a wet blanket, but as I said, I share your concern.

[southriv]

Ron,

I took as look at the trigger area next to an 06 Swiss Cross/shield (Made in 1913) and a pre-war DWM. The area is just like the pre-war, but the Swiss is a little sharper. In comparison to the Swiss , which is about 98-99%, the resemblence is very, very similar - down to machine marks and the colors, the plum colored areas, etc

I think, at the worst, there may have been some partial work done. When I consider all the facts, possible facts and unknowns, I feel about 80-90% right about this gun and about somewhat 10-20% skeptical. Bottom line, those are numbers I am willing to accept as I am not (nor can I afford to be ) a strictly 98-99% condition collector. I do really like this piece - and that is an extremely important factor. Controversy, mystery and uncertainty are an integral part of the "Luger World". Lately, when I am seeing professional restorations going for over 2k, I feel good about the territory I'm in. Worst case, I figure I can recover my money if I am honest in the sale - which will probably only happen if I see something else I just have to have & want to make this the sacrificial lamb of my collection.

Bob

[Ron Wood]

Good for you. I think you are correct that there may have been some partial work done...a "touch-up" rather than a total restoration. It is a great looking piece and a tough Luger to find. I like it too and would be happy with it. I prefer unrestored nice guns, but like you, I usually can't afford them. A nicely restored (or touched-up) rare piece is better than not having one at all, provided it is represented as such and the price is commensurate.

Let me know if you ever decide to sacrifice this lamb!
Best regards,
Ron

[southriv]

Well said, Ron...& thanks for the input.

Bob

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Bob,

When I saw your photos, I had the following thoughts :

1. The photo showing the underside of the takedown lever and trigger guard seemed to show a finger-print in the bluing...around the top of the trigger guard. Might just be grease in the photo though...



2. The photo of the top of the toggle seemed to show the drift pin through the toggle knob area having the top of the drift pin blued over...this pin usually has its top "in the white"...



3. When I looked at the photos of the strawed parts, I initially thought they were a bit "subdued" and possibly restrawed...

As Ron said...based on price...and assuming the price was fair for a bit of rework...I would be excited having this one in my gun safe as well...

A gun shop in Santa Barbara is listing an original 1908 Bulgarian in 90% condition without a proper magazine with the Bulgarian crest on the toggle for an asking price of $ 3850.00. I have not seen this one in person to know if it is really original finish or not...

p.s. What is the bore condition ? Usually a gun with a worn/tired bore should have commensurate wear on the exterior of the gun...

Thanks for sharing your great luger photos and giving us a chance to look her over...

Regards,

Pete...

[southriv]

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the comments - the prints are yours truly and the pin is in the white - the glare from my photography is to blame for muddling the view . Next time I take pics I may use the "white Box" I made for knife photography or take them outdoors on a cloudy day - how to "shoot" these should be a topic over in General Discussions.

This one has its place - in the catagory many more of us can afford. It's happily residing in the safe. BTW, I share your aperciation of the Swiss - I only have an 06(born in 1913) - so I think you can understand my general attraction to pre-war DWMs

Regards, Bob

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Bob,

Based on the additional images which you have provided, it appears that this pistol has received some very professional 'cosmetic' enhancements. As I have mentioned to some fellow collectors on this forum, a pistol has to show a certain degree of consistency between the surface wear, the degree of fading, and the patina which your pistol does not totally show. Nonetheless, you have a very good 1908 Bulgarian which might be worth keeping in your collection if you paid a reasonable price.

Now you need a M1900 and a M1906 Bulgarian to make a set!

Good luck,
Albert

[drbuster]

This 1908 Bulgarian received a large amount of interest. This lead to my wondering....One sees not infrequently a Bulgarian military holster on e-bay yet the guns are very rarely seen. What gives? Is there a stash of Bulgarian lugers still in the country yet to be "expatriated". How does one explain an ample supply of the holsters but very few guns?

[southriv]

drbuster, I have noticed the same thing - so I'm not the only one who wonders about this.

Bob

[Edward Tinker]

[drbuster]

See what I mean? Ed has shown a great example (or examples) of Luger-less Bulgarian holsters. Did they go to the Soviet Union after WW2? Then why did the holsters go west and the guns east? I hate enigmas like this.

[Heinz]

I would suggest that many of the holsters made after WWI were made to fit the standard 1914 pattern P08. It would be interesting to note if there appears to be a wear pattern from the 1914 lanyard loop. I have one undated Bulgarian holster that appears to have held a 1914 and a 1910 dated that does not appear to have a 1914 lanyard pattern wear spot.

[drbuster]

Heinz makes a very pertinent and apparently important reply to this question. I posed this problem to Michael Krause, always a great fund of information, and he said exactly the same thing as did Heinz. The classic Bulgarian P.08 was found only in early 1908 vintage, or earlier, holsters, as originally issued. Most of those later Bulgarian holsters housed Mauser made WW2 vintage military Lugers. This seems to be a very plausible explanation for all those Bulgarian holsters but so few Bulgarian Lugers.