Krieghoff E2 proof?

Walt NW · 08-05-2005, 02:45 PM

Going to admit to some abysmal ignorance here with this question, but are the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail of an early Krieghoff rework considered the "E2" proof, or is that a different stamping altogether and if so, where would it normally be located?

Dwight Gruber · 08-05-2005, 03:08 PM

The c/N is the Commercial (civilian) German power-proof. The eagle/2 is an inspector's mark which can show up on many of the individual parts of a Krieghoff Luger.

--Dwight

Walt NW · 08-07-2005, 11:51 AM

Hi Dwight,
Been out of pocket for a few days, but appreciate the reply. It has been my understanding that the horizonal crown N's on right side of receiver and frame rail indicated an early Krieghoff proof stamp as noted on proof marking #4 on the technical info data page. Having only a couple of Lugers in my weapons collection, I need all the info I can get on these little beauties so appreciate the input. Anyplace I can go to see what the E2 inspectors mark looks like?

Navy · 08-07-2005, 12:23 PM

Hi Walt,

Go into Member Gallery to my 1943 rig; John D took a super crisp photo of thge eagle 2.

Tom A

Pete Ebbink · 08-07-2005, 01:20 PM

Walt,

If you are collecting in the HK world, the Gibson book is a must (until John Dunkle puts his out...

). Simpson's has them on their site for $ 60...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...products_id=33

Tom's photo :

Navy · 08-07-2005, 02:46 PM

Thanks Pete; I couldn't figger out how to do that.

No surprise there, huh?

Tom A.

Walt NW · 08-08-2005, 07:39 PM

Now that is a great picture! Unfortunately, the one following is the best I can do with my little 2 mp Kodak, but hopefully, it will get the idea across.
As shown (barely and sort of) my double date police has the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail and I understand that only Krieghoff reworks were stamped with these markings in this location. However, there are no E2 inspector stamps on this piece. Bottom line question, is this a Krieghoff or not?

Navy · 08-08-2005, 10:02 PM

Walt,

Your gun *may* be a DWM that was re-worked by Krieghoff; the rear of the frame would have H Krieghoff Suhl stamped into it; I can't make out the smaller stamps on your shot. Maybe EL/2; maybe not.

Tom A

Walt NW · 08-08-2005, 10:27 PM

Tom,
Will try to get a larger picture. The two smaller stamps on receiver and frame are horizonal crown N's as shown in #4 of the markings section of the technical info page of the forum noting the old placement of the commercial proof and that Krieghoff used a similar but smaller design. It is indeed a DMW, and bares no other Krieghoff markings, but does have these small horizonal crown N's on the right side of the barrel and breech block. No E/2 markings anywhere.

Dwight Gruber · 08-08-2005, 10:40 PM

Walt,

What is the chamber date, and what is the serial number of the gun with suffix?

--Dwight

Navy · 08-09-2005, 07:36 AM

Hi Walt,

Based on the horizontal C/Ns and the other Imperial Army proofs, I suggest that it is reasonable for one to assume that you have a re-worked W.W.I Army that was sold into commercial market. There were hundreds of thousands of these re-works. The fact that it is not stamped "germany" would lead one to believe it was not intended for the American market.

Tom A.

Walt NW · 08-09-2005, 09:54 AM

Hello Dwight and Tom,
Chamber date is 1917/1920, serial #9414b, police marked for Dresden as S.P.D. Went through this to some degree back about 5 years ago with several members of the forum including Tom H., Ted, a fine gentleman, Bill M. who is apparently no longer in the group, and a phone call to Jan in Alaska. General consensis was that it was an early Krieghoff rework due to the placement of the crown N's on the right frame rail. However, at that time, I was unaware of the Krieghoff E/2 stamp so, without it, am trying to get verification as to whether or not this can be a Krieghoff. Guess the question is did they use the E/2 stamp on all their reworks or, on their early work, using the smaller version of the commercail crown N as a proof mark, did they not use it? Greatly appreciate all your help.

John Sabato · 08-09-2005, 10:00 AM

Walt,

"Bill M." is still an active member of the Lugerforum... "Bill M." was his user name under the "old" forum software format... under this new format, his user name is "MauserLugers"

Navy · 08-09-2005, 11:35 AM

I have an early krieghoff re-work of a DWM; will throw the loupe on it tonight and get back to you.

Tom A

Walt NW · 08-09-2005, 03:06 PM

Thanks for all the help, Tom. On many things, from real estate to aviation and military history, I'm extremely knowledgeable, but with only 2 lugers in my weapons collection, I'm still a babe in the woods although I've followed the goings on of the forum for the past 5 or 6 years. If the Bill M. I mentioned is the gentlemen who used an E-mail address of blackfoot.net, I owe him a debt of gratitude for all the time he put in on pieceing together the history of this gun based on it being a Krieghoff rework as the possibility exists it went through 3 reworks from DMW to Krieghoff to police.
Didn't know when I stumbled over the Luger in the garage sale a few months back I'd get so tied up into this again. Luger collecting has got to be like a virus that never quites gets out of the blood.

Edward Tinker · 08-09-2005, 03:41 PM

Walt, yes that is the same Bill, he is very ready to share knowledge, has a nice collection and is a friend of mine.

Ed

John D. · 08-09-2005, 06:09 PM

Can you tell me what you see on the LEFT SIDE of the reciever? I'm not certain what you believe is correct, as of yet.

Thanks.

John D.

John D. · 08-09-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom A
Walt,

Your gun *may* be a DWM that was re-worked by Krieghoff...

I don't believe it is. HK was very precise about the placement and type of stamp they put on their re-works.

I could be wrong - but I'm not certain I am - well, "yet"....

John

Walt NW · 08-09-2005, 06:30 PM

Hi John,
Left side simply has the serial on the receiver, the normal double digets on trigger plate, locking bolt etc., and the imperial eagle on the side of the breech block. All horizonal crown N's are on the right, receiver preceeding the inspectiors mark, directly below on the frame rail, right side of barrel and top right of breech block. Good to hear Bill is still active in this. We exchanged many Emails over this thing years back and he devoted much time to working this over. A true gentleman who gave of his knowledge and information patiently working with me through every idea or conclusion I came up with regarding this Lugers history.

Navy · 08-09-2005, 08:49 PM

Gave mine a quick look over. It has the vertical C/N on the left and is GERMANY marked on the right; Krieghoff marked on rear of the frame. No similarities with your gun; wish i cudda been of more help.

Tom A.

08-05-2005, 02:45 PM	#1
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Krieghoff E2 proof? Going to admit to some abysmal ignorance here with this question, but are the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail of an early Krieghoff rework considered the "E2" proof, or is that a different stamping altogether and if so, where would it normally be located?

08-08-2005, 07:39 PM	#7
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Now that is a great picture! Unfortunately, the one following is the best I can do with my little 2 mp Kodak, but hopefully, it will get the idea across. As shown (barely and sort of) my double date police has the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail and I understand that only Krieghoff reworks were stamped with these markings in this location. However, there are no E2 inspector stamps on this piece. Bottom line question, is this a Krieghoff or not? Attached Images

08-09-2005, 10:00 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	FYI: BIll M. Walt, "Bill M." is still an active member of the Lugerforum... "Bill M." was his user name under the "old" forum software format... under this new format, his user name is "MauserLugers" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-09-2005, 03:41 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Walt, yes that is the same Bill, he is very ready to share knowledge, has a nice collection and is a friend of mine. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-05-2005, 03:08 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	The c/N is the Commercial (civilian) German power-proof. The eagle/2 is an inspector's mark which can show up on many of the individual parts of a Krieghoff Luger. --Dwight

08-07-2005, 11:51 AM	#3
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Dwight, Been out of pocket for a few days, but appreciate the reply. It has been my understanding that the horizonal crown N's on right side of receiver and frame rail indicated an early Krieghoff proof stamp as noted on proof marking #4 on the technical info data page. Having only a couple of Lugers in my weapons collection, I need all the info I can get on these little beauties so appreciate the input. Anyplace I can go to see what the E2 inspectors mark looks like?

08-07-2005, 12:23 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Eagle 2 Hi Walt, Go into Member Gallery to my 1943 rig; John D took a super crisp photo of thge eagle 2. Tom A

08-07-2005, 01:20 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Walt, If you are collecting in the HK world, the Gibson book is a must (until John Dunkle puts his out... ). Simpson's has them on their site for $ 60... http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...products_id=33 Tom's photo :

08-07-2005, 02:46 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Thanks Pete; I couldn't figger out how to do that. No surprise there, huh? Tom A.

08-08-2005, 10:02 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Walt, Your gun may be a DWM that was re-worked by Krieghoff; the rear of the frame would have H Krieghoff Suhl stamped into it; I can't make out the smaller stamps on your shot. Maybe EL/2; maybe not. Tom A

08-08-2005, 10:27 PM	#9
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, Will try to get a larger picture. The two smaller stamps on receiver and frame are horizonal crown N's as shown in #4 of the markings section of the technical info page of the forum noting the old placement of the commercial proof and that Krieghoff used a similar but smaller design. It is indeed a DMW, and bares no other Krieghoff markings, but does have these small horizonal crown N's on the right side of the barrel and breech block. No E/2 markings anywhere.

08-08-2005, 10:40 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Walt, What is the chamber date, and what is the serial number of the gun with suffix? --Dwight

08-09-2005, 07:36 AM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Walt, Based on the horizontal C/Ns and the other Imperial Army proofs, I suggest that it is reasonable for one to assume that you have a re-worked W.W.I Army that was sold into commercial market. There were hundreds of thousands of these re-works. The fact that it is not stamped "germany" would lead one to believe it was not intended for the American market. Tom A.

08-09-2005, 09:54 AM	#12
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Dwight and Tom, Chamber date is 1917/1920, serial #9414b, police marked for Dresden as S.P.D. Went through this to some degree back about 5 years ago with several members of the forum including Tom H., Ted, a fine gentleman, Bill M. who is apparently no longer in the group, and a phone call to Jan in Alaska. General consensis was that it was an early Krieghoff rework due to the placement of the crown N's on the right frame rail. However, at that time, I was unaware of the Krieghoff E/2 stamp so, without it, am trying to get verification as to whether or not this can be a Krieghoff. Guess the question is did they use the E/2 stamp on all their reworks or, on their early work, using the smaller version of the commercail crown N as a proof mark, did they not use it? Greatly appreciate all your help.

08-09-2005, 11:35 AM	#14
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I have an early krieghoff re-work of a DWM; will throw the loupe on it tonight and get back to you. Tom A

08-09-2005, 03:06 PM	#15
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the help, Tom. On many things, from real estate to aviation and military history, I'm extremely knowledgeable, but with only 2 lugers in my weapons collection, I'm still a babe in the woods although I've followed the goings on of the forum for the past 5 or 6 years. If the Bill M. I mentioned is the gentlemen who used an E-mail address of blackfoot.net, I owe him a debt of gratitude for all the time he put in on pieceing together the history of this gun based on it being a Krieghoff rework as the possibility exists it went through 3 reworks from DMW to Krieghoff to police. Didn't know when I stumbled over the Luger in the garage sale a few months back I'd get so tied up into this again. Luger collecting has got to be like a virus that never quites gets out of the blood.

08-09-2005, 06:09 PM	#17
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Can you tell me what you see on the LEFT SIDE of the reciever? I'm not certain what you believe is correct, as of yet. Thanks. John D.

08-09-2005, 06:30 PM	#19
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John, Left side simply has the serial on the receiver, the normal double digets on trigger plate, locking bolt etc., and the imperial eagle on the side of the breech block. All horizonal crown N's are on the right, receiver preceeding the inspectiors mark, directly below on the frame rail, right side of barrel and top right of breech block. Good to hear Bill is still active in this. We exchanged many Emails over this thing years back and he devoted much time to working this over. A true gentleman who gave of his knowledge and information patiently working with me through every idea or conclusion I came up with regarding this Lugers history.

08-09-2005, 08:49 PM	#20
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Gave mine a quick look over. It has the vertical C/N on the left and is GERMANY marked on the right; Krieghoff marked on rear of the frame. No similarities with your gun; wish i cudda been of more help. Tom A.