Prototype's dies

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 01:05 AM

Hello to all the members. I am trying to assemble some comparitive photo's of Prototype die stamp's on 100xx numbered lugers (bbl.) In the process of proving up one in my posession. I have noticed flaws in 0's of the bbl. die stamps. Mr. Wood emailed my a photo of another that seems to have the same charactoristics..Does anyone here have or have access to a prototype that a good close-up of the bbl'. 100xx serial number could be used in my study??....Thanks...Harry

John Sabato · 08-14-2005, 11:23 AM

Harry,

I can't help... and I am sure that there aren't an abundant number of members who have prototype Lugers to assist, but hopefully those who do, will supply photos...

...in any event, Welcome to the Lugerforum, and good luck with your interesting study... please let us know the results when you are done.

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 01:11 PM

Thanks John, I know its an uphill climb. I have had a number of Lugers over the last 40yrs, but none have I encountered as outstanding as this one. (email me for set of photo'[email protected]) being a presentation piece as well, it of course has the GL die stamp also. I am somewhat surprised no-one has done a study of dies used to mark these rare examples, it would limit questions as to fake or not. This piece has never been publicly offered for sale and until recently been in the family of the G.I. that brought it back. He was a demolition man assigned with his "squad" to demolish an estate, I imagine for tacticle reasons, at any rate the home had a walk in safe which the men blew the door to and this Luger was found inside. The gun was presented to Alfred von Tripitz, whom I am sure you are aware was prominent in that first military order (Navy) of Lugers. I would rate it in the top 3-5 desireable Lugers known. you my not agree but the fact being prototype and presentation to Tripitz adds enormous historical value to it as well..Condition is as new..Again thank you for you email....Harry

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2005, 01:17 PM

Harry,

The SE NAPCA event is coming up this Friday/Saturday in Chattanooga, TN.

Any chance you might be coming and could bring this piece along ? I know there will be many Navy luger floks there...including Tom Knox, sr.

Link to the previous discussion about the AvT Navy luger on Jan Still's Gun Boards :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4938

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 01:24 PM

Pete, thanks for your email.. I wish I could, I work for the Gov. and schedualed to work 6 days this comming week. I am planning on Vegas in Feb. retiring this year and will have lots of time to travel (thank God)..you can email for professional photo's of this Luger address here on board....Thanks ..Harry

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 01:29 PM

I might add..I moved away from the other board listed above as discussions went from informational to negitivity by a very few members. my desire is to share information in a serious manner...Thanks...Harry

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 01:49 PM

OOp's jus noticed I spelled Tirpitz name wrong...I'll blame it on the morning coffee...harry

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2005, 03:12 PM

Hi Harry,

I was following (and participating in...) the technical discussion on Jan's Board about your AvT luger. The discussion did stray a bit when it diverged into that other discussion about the "legal ownership" and the "spoils of war" debate...

Maybe this time, it will just focus on your luger and attributes...

Would appreciate any photos...please send to me at :

"[email protected]".

If you would like to post some of your photos on the Luger Forum, let me know and I can lend a hand getting them posted for you...if not, I will just keep any you send to myself...

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 03:32 PM

Will do Pete...and you can post them for the other members here...harry

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2005, 04:36 PM

Here are Harry's photos (thanks for allowing us to post them, Harry ! ) :

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2005, 04:37 PM

Last set of Harry's photos :

drbuster · 08-14-2005, 05:17 PM

Wow, what an impressive piece! This could be the only model 1900 type fitted with a Navy rear sight. It has a proper grip safety (half way), GL monograms on the rear toggle back AND magazine bottom. And the condition is almost 100%. I'm sure this piece will be criticized and have to be defended, but it looks to be of the same pedigree as the Hiram Maxim carbine. Is there a stock? If you don't mind, Harry, how did you acquire this "gem"?

surlydog · 08-14-2005, 05:22 PM

What you don't see is the 6" bbl. The gun came through an estate lawyer, no stock. best I can learn there was not one with the gun when found..It was obviously given as a token either before or after the Navy contract was signed....Harry

lugerholsterrepair · 08-14-2005, 10:32 PM

Sombody a lot smarter than me will have to criticize this georgous Luger! Harry< There is no real clear photo of the Gold monogram on the receiver. I hate to trouble anyone but it sure would be nice to see! Thanks for sharing this wonderfull find, You are one lucky guy! Jerry Burney

Pete Ebbink · 08-15-2005, 01:45 PM

Hi Harry,

The thumb safety lever looks really odd. The diced/checkered area looks really thick...???

From the photos of the "GL"...the stamping looks odd...maybe double-struck...??? Not sure if it is double-struck, but it is hard to imagine it would leave DWM in the early days like that...???

Regards,

Pete...

Vlim · 08-15-2005, 02:28 PM

Is there any additional paperwork or paper trail with this gun?

The Tirpitz story and the state of the gun raise a lot of questions. My first impression is that of a fairly recent creation, not a vintage presentation gun.

A GI story without any additional background information is not worth much, I'm afraid.

surlydog · 08-15-2005, 06:38 PM

I would imagine, anything new brought to light is going to raise questions..But to the doubters of real or not I will put up $500.00 that is real, thats a standing offer. The GL is not double stamped. As to a paper trail..how many of you out there have lugers that were brought back by G.I's and have no trail..sad to say this just happens to be an exceptional piece, but same problem as many of the others out there. That is why in my first post I said my search was for other prototypes to compare those 100xx bbl. dies. lastly, if this gun is a fake then just about all the others out there could be fakes as well.the effort to create this would be huge and the price it was aquired for would have little paid to have the dies made..so that leaves us ego, was this gun created just for ego and then sold at a "very" reasonable price. There is not a Luger collector out there that has ever seen or been offered this gun before it came into my hands. If anyone then suggests I made it.Thank you, If I had that ability I would be selling lesser models by the basket full. I think this is a case of "I never seen it before so it must be fake..heaven help us if anything else supurb should surface..just a thought, my father who fought in Germany is 85 years old..these guys are passing on every day..how many other unknown great guns will surface after they are gone??..and if you found one would you assume "unknown must be fake" ..As collectors, we should all work together to assist in proving-up the unusual. Inspiring keeps the hobby alive for the ones that follow..alright I'll hop off my soap box..thanks

Jan C Still · 08-16-2005, 01:11 AM

Harry
In the lengthy post above, you did not answer any of the serious questions raised (on both forums) about this Luger.
Jan

surlydog · 08-16-2005, 07:52 AM

Thats funny Jan, I just re=read it and seem to have done exactly that..No paper trail..GL NOT dbl. strike,and first impressions...well is that how does one answer that.. i suggest you make a quick $500 and PROVE this gun is not as stated..my first impression is :that if you discovered this gun it would be hailed as a great find on your part...why is someone like you not instead, saying hmm, what can i contribute to help document this piece,who might i know that has a prototype to compare die stamps, thats a reasonable idea..This is the same trend I saw on your forum, from information (facts) sharing to negitivity..Unless you can offer spacifics " this is not right for period . ect.) why support innuendo

surlydog · 08-16-2005, 08:35 AM

Pete, I will correct my last statement Took a glass this am and studied the GL on toggle It DOES appear to be dbl. stamped..My question is does anyone have another GL marked piece to compare die stamps of the GL. From photo's I have seem it appears to be original in detail..The angle of the safety in photo's puts the piece at a 30-45 degree prosepctive to the camera. Also of course it is not the issue Navy safety. I think this gun was a prototype that was submitted for Navy approval and then given as a presentaion..though the die stamped areas show no sign of being polished over, and this has a high polish/ finish to all surfaces. From photo's, other prototypes do not appear to have this finish..Have you seen any close up?.My logic, in what is turning into a debate, far from my original questions on dies is this. Why would someone create a masterfull fake with the expence it would take and part with it for a VERY reasonable price, I received this gun from a walk-in at a gun show who traded an Atty for a gun in the (4) figures. I have not made any real effort to sell it, I have had offers to buy at a large amount of money..but I have pursued documenting this instead the best I can ..throught the dies themselfs..if others (prototypes)
have the same die bbl. die flaws then all are real or all are fake..makes sense to me..

08-14-2005, 01:05 AM	#1
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Prototype's dies Hello to all the members. I am trying to assemble some comparitive photo's of Prototype die stamp's on 100xx numbered lugers (bbl.) In the process of proving up one in my posession. I have noticed flaws in 0's of the bbl. die stamps. Mr. Wood emailed my a photo of another that seems to have the same charactoristics..Does anyone here have or have access to a prototype that a good close-up of the bbl'. 100xx serial number could be used in my study??....Thanks...Harry Attached Thumbnails __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 11:23 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Harry, I can't help... and I am sure that there aren't an abundant number of members who have prototype Lugers to assist, but hopefully those who do, will supply photos... ...in any event, Welcome to the Lugerforum, and good luck with your interesting study... please let us know the results when you are done. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-14-2005, 01:11 PM	#3
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John, I know its an uphill climb. I have had a number of Lugers over the last 40yrs, but none have I encountered as outstanding as this one. (email me for set of photo'[email protected]) being a presentation piece as well, it of course has the GL die stamp also. I am somewhat surprised no-one has done a study of dies used to mark these rare examples, it would limit questions as to fake or not. This piece has never been publicly offered for sale and until recently been in the family of the G.I. that brought it back. He was a demolition man assigned with his "squad" to demolish an estate, I imagine for tacticle reasons, at any rate the home had a walk in safe which the men blew the door to and this Luger was found inside. The gun was presented to Alfred von Tripitz, whom I am sure you are aware was prominent in that first military order (Navy) of Lugers. I would rate it in the top 3-5 desireable Lugers known. you my not agree but the fact being prototype and presentation to Tripitz adds enormous historical value to it as well..Condition is as new..Again thank you for you email....Harry __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 01:24 PM	#5
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, thanks for your email.. I wish I could, I work for the Gov. and schedualed to work 6 days this comming week. I am planning on Vegas in Feb. retiring this year and will have lots of time to travel (thank God)..you can email for professional photo's of this Luger address here on board....Thanks ..Harry __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 01:29 PM	#6
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I might add..I moved away from the other board listed above as discussions went from informational to negitivity by a very few members. my desire is to share information in a serious manner...Thanks...Harry __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 01:17 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Harry, The SE NAPCA event is coming up this Friday/Saturday in Chattanooga, TN. Any chance you might be coming and could bring this piece along ? I know there will be many Navy luger floks there...including Tom Knox, sr. Link to the previous discussion about the AvT Navy luger on Jan Still's Gun Boards : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4938

08-14-2005, 01:49 PM	#7
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OOp's jus noticed I spelled Tirpitz name wrong...I'll blame it on the morning coffee...harry __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 03:12 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Harry, I was following (and participating in...) the technical discussion on Jan's Board about your AvT luger. The discussion did stray a bit when it diverged into that other discussion about the "legal ownership" and the "spoils of war" debate... Maybe this time, it will just focus on your luger and attributes... Would appreciate any photos...please send to me at : "[email protected]". If you would like to post some of your photos on the Luger Forum, let me know and I can lend a hand getting them posted for you...if not, I will just keep any you send to myself...

08-14-2005, 03:32 PM	#9
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Will do Pete...and you can post them for the other members here...harry __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 04:36 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here are Harry's photos (thanks for allowing us to post them, Harry ! ) :

08-14-2005, 04:37 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Last set of Harry's photos :

08-14-2005, 05:17 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Wow, what an impressive piece! This could be the only model 1900 type fitted with a Navy rear sight. It has a proper grip safety (half way), GL monograms on the rear toggle back AND magazine bottom. And the condition is almost 100%. I'm sure this piece will be criticized and have to be defended, but it looks to be of the same pedigree as the Hiram Maxim carbine. Is there a stock? If you don't mind, Harry, how did you acquire this "gem"?

08-14-2005, 05:22 PM	#13
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What you don't see is the 6" bbl. The gun came through an estate lawyer, no stock. best I can learn there was not one with the gun when found..It was obviously given as a token either before or after the Navy contract was signed....Harry __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-14-2005, 10:32 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Sombody a lot smarter than me will have to criticize this georgous Luger! Harry< There is no real clear photo of the Gold monogram on the receiver. I hate to trouble anyone but it sure would be nice to see! Thanks for sharing this wonderfull find, You are one lucky guy! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-15-2005, 01:45 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Harry, The thumb safety lever looks really odd. The diced/checkered area looks really thick...??? From the photos of the "GL"...the stamping looks odd...maybe double-struck...??? Not sure if it is double-struck, but it is hard to imagine it would leave DWM in the early days like that...??? Regards, Pete...

08-15-2005, 02:28 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Is there any additional paperwork or paper trail with this gun? The Tirpitz story and the state of the gun raise a lot of questions. My first impression is that of a fairly recent creation, not a vintage presentation gun. A GI story without any additional background information is not worth much, I'm afraid.

08-15-2005, 06:38 PM	#17
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would imagine, anything new brought to light is going to raise questions..But to the doubters of real or not I will put up $500.00 that is real, thats a standing offer. The GL is not double stamped. As to a paper trail..how many of you out there have lugers that were brought back by G.I's and have no trail..sad to say this just happens to be an exceptional piece, but same problem as many of the others out there. That is why in my first post I said my search was for other prototypes to compare those 100xx bbl. dies. lastly, if this gun is a fake then just about all the others out there could be fakes as well.the effort to create this would be huge and the price it was aquired for would have little paid to have the dies made..so that leaves us ego, was this gun created just for ego and then sold at a "very" reasonable price. There is not a Luger collector out there that has ever seen or been offered this gun before it came into my hands. If anyone then suggests I made it.Thank you, If I had that ability I would be selling lesser models by the basket full. I think this is a case of "I never seen it before so it must be fake..heaven help us if anything else supurb should surface..just a thought, my father who fought in Germany is 85 years old..these guys are passing on every day..how many other unknown great guns will surface after they are gone??..and if you found one would you assume "unknown must be fake" ..As collectors, we should all work together to assist in proving-up the unusual. Inspiring keeps the hobby alive for the ones that follow..alright I'll hop off my soap box..thanks __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-16-2005, 01:11 AM	#18
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Harry In the lengthy post above, you did not answer any of the serious questions raised (on both forums) about this Luger. Jan

08-16-2005, 07:52 AM	#19
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thats funny Jan, I just re=read it and seem to have done exactly that..No paper trail..GL NOT dbl. strike,and first impressions...well is that how does one answer that.. i suggest you make a quick $500 and PROVE this gun is not as stated..my first impression is :that if you discovered this gun it would be hailed as a great find on your part...why is someone like you not instead, saying hmm, what can i contribute to help document this piece,who might i know that has a prototype to compare die stamps, thats a reasonable idea..This is the same trend I saw on your forum, from information (facts) sharing to negitivity..Unless you can offer spacifics " this is not right for period . ect.) why support innuendo __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

08-16-2005, 08:35 AM	#20
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, I will correct my last statement Took a glass this am and studied the GL on toggle It DOES appear to be dbl. stamped..My question is does anyone have another GL marked piece to compare die stamps of the GL. From photo's I have seem it appears to be original in detail..The angle of the safety in photo's puts the piece at a 30-45 degree prosepctive to the camera. Also of course it is not the issue Navy safety. I think this gun was a prototype that was submitted for Navy approval and then given as a presentaion..though the die stamped areas show no sign of being polished over, and this has a high polish/ finish to all surfaces. From photo's, other prototypes do not appear to have this finish..Have you seen any close up?.My logic, in what is turning into a debate, far from my original questions on dies is this. Why would someone create a masterfull fake with the expence it would take and part with it for a VERY reasonable price, I received this gun from a walk-in at a gun show who traded an Atty for a gun in the (4) figures. I have not made any real effort to sell it, I have had offers to buy at a large amount of money..but I have pursued documenting this instead the best I can ..throught the dies themselfs..if others (prototypes) have the same die bbl. die flaws then all are real or all are fake..makes sense to me.. __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina