Luger grips serial numbers

wworker · 10-01-2005, 10:49 AM

How does a person tell if Luger grips are original?

Were the serial numbers stamped on the underside of the grips or written on them with some type of ink?

policeluger · 10-01-2005, 11:58 AM

A very broad shotgun question, no one answer will cover the ages of Luger production, perhaps there is one era of Luger production that someone here can help you with...

Edward Tinker · 10-01-2005, 12:00 PM

Some era lugers were marked, other eras were not, so you must give us the exactness of a era weapon, i.e. 1916 DWM or 1917 Erfurt or 1941 42.

Ed

wworker · 10-01-2005, 07:42 PM

Sorry guys, I didn't know Lugers were that varied in the method of grip serialization.

Ok, how about a byf Luger. How are the grips serialized?

Johnny C. Kitchens · 10-01-2005, 09:20 PM

I've had two byf 42 Lugers and they both had the two digit numbers stamped on the inside of the grips...

Edward Tinker · 10-01-2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wworker
Sorry guys, I didn't know Lugers were that varied in the method of grip serialization.

This is what makes things interesting about lugers, scarey at times, but fascinating!

ed

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 01:15 AM

This issue can become very foggy. You may have owned a Luger for 50 years and swear that the grips came with it from the factory. Having the last two digits (or the entire serial number) stamped inside the grip reinforces that feeling, but this can be faked. Sometimes one sees a worn Luger with fresh grips bearing high sharp diamonds, that is easy. The best I have been able to tell: Early lugers, 1900-1906 bore the serial numbers inside; 1908 commercials, militaries to 1912 (1913?) did not; post WW1 were all over the place; Simson's did, especially Lugers made by them; early Mauser Lugers did, but later ones didn't, especially with plastic grips, many police Mauser banners had only waffenampts stamped inside. These observations are stated only as a baseline, I'm sure many many exceptions can be voiced. In summary, it may be very hard to tell if the grips are original to the pistol, one must judge the overall wear of the pistol and match it to the grips.

Dwight Gruber · 10-02-2005, 02:38 AM

Don't care to dispute with my good friend the Doc, but by example--1911 DWM and 1911 Erfurt both with numbered grips, 1912 DWM and 1912 Erfurt both with numbered grips. My 1908 First Issue DWM grips aren't numbered, but I am not confident that they are originial, either.

--Dwight

wworker · 10-02-2005, 07:44 AM

IÃ¢??m beginning to understand how every nuance of the Luger is important to its value. Grips can be difficult to understand as to whether or not they are authentic and original, but I have seen some excellent threads and posts here about them.

With the number of reworks that were done to Lugers in generals, itÃ¢??s doubtful that all of the grips would be original. I have been able to spot Lugers with the new grips with the very well defined diamonds as drbuster wrote. Many of these Lugers also have Mec-Gar magazines indicating multiple replaced parts.

Lugerdoc · 10-02-2005, 08:56 AM

As a general rule of thumb (with many exceptions): Commerial lugers starting with M1908 with have unnumbered grips, and all militaries, except some late Mausers, with have numbered grips. TH

Frank · 10-02-2005, 09:59 AM

Hi Tom (TH), I'm glad you said with many exceptions!! Mausers are difficult because the on again off again grip numbering system is tough to get a grip on (pun intended). The original K-date grips were numbered, then it appears that sometime in 1935 (G-Date) they stopped numbering grips, starting up again in 1937, then discontinued numbering somewhere in 1939 and starting up again in1940. Numbers continued to the end of production in 1942 (with the exception of the Black Bakelite Grips).

Edit remark: During the periods that the grips weren't numbered, a few were and the periods they were numbered a few weren't!! Don't know why!!!

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 10:36 AM

As I said, there are MANY exceptions, assuming the grips are original! And of course, with a nod to Dwight, just about every Erfurt I've seen does have numbered grips, some with even non-matching numbers!

Herb · 10-02-2005, 11:38 AM

Ken, I checked my two byf 42's and both have the last two digits of the serial number on them plus the proof/acceptance code E/135. One is # 2922b the other is 2567b, someone here can tell you what month they were made to give you an idea of the period in which they were being numbered. One thing to watch out for on these is the stamping seems to be half-hearted on all four of them, in two cases with only a portion of the numbers being stamped and on one only the eagle of the acceptance stamp is visible in addition to partial numbers. On two of them the two numbers are separated by about an inch and only partially stamped at that. Also two of them have an added V on them, I have no idea what that indicates, hope this helps a little.

Lugerdoc · 10-03-2005, 08:39 AM

Frank et al, According to military marking instruction, the grips SHOULD be numbered. I doubt that there were long periods that the instructions were not followed, but workers do sometimes make mistakes. Probably more frequently grips would break and be replaced or upgraded by collectors. Certainly, grips with the wrong numbers, are not original issue. Unless fitted by someone very knowledable, one can usually spot a replaced grip by the fit and/or checkering profile. TH

Frank · 10-03-2005, 10:50 AM

Tom, I understand your SHOULD comment. However, data from my small group and from other major Military Mauser Collectors verify the majority of late G-Dates, 1936 and 1939 Code 42 Luger Grips were not numbered!!

I do understand about replacement grips, but it would seem that I would expect to see the same trend on collectable Lugers from other periods as well. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that only those pistols had defective grips that needed replacement!!

Edward Tinker · 10-03-2005, 12:49 PM

I would like to add this to the FAQ that I never finished, so we'd need to know;

pre-WW1 commercial
WW1
Weimar DWM
Weimar Simson
WW2 / Nazi Mauser
WW2 / Nazi Krieghoff

Which were numbered and which ones weren't?

Navy · 10-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Ed,

IIRC, the breakout is like this:

Pre-war commercial: Numbered (Not absolutely certain here)
WWI-Numbered through about 1916
Weimar DWM-If new production, numbered
Weimar Simpson-numbered
WW2/Nazi Mauser-Numbered mostly but some exceptions in certain serial number ranges
WWII/Nazi Krieghoff-G and Early S date numbered; late S-date through 1944, unnumbered.

Tom A

Frank · 10-03-2005, 03:01 PM

Tom A, sorry but really wrong on the the Military Mausers!! Please read my posts on the ranges!!

Navy · 10-03-2005, 03:28 PM

Frank,

Was using a relatively small sample (My KM pieces) and an unreliable memory. I apologize to all for my error.

Tom A

Frank · 10-03-2005, 03:37 PM

Tom A. Not a problem!!

10-01-2005, 10:49 AM	#1
wworker User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger grips serial numbers How does a person tell if Luger grips are original? Were the serial numbers stamped on the underside of the grips or written on them with some type of ink?

10-01-2005, 09:20 PM	#5
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	byf 42... I've had two byf 42 Lugers and they both had the two digit numbers stamped on the inside of the grips... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

10-02-2005, 08:56 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	As a general rule of thumb (with many exceptions): Commerial lugers starting with M1908 with have unnumbered grips, and all militaries, except some late Mausers, with have numbered grips. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

10-02-2005, 11:38 AM	#13
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ken, I checked my two byf 42's and both have the last two digits of the serial number on them plus the proof/acceptance code E/135. One is # 2922b the other is 2567b, someone here can tell you what month they were made to give you an idea of the period in which they were being numbered. One thing to watch out for on these is the stamping seems to be half-hearted on all four of them, in two cases with only a portion of the numbers being stamped and on one only the eagle of the acceptance stamp is visible in addition to partial numbers. On two of them the two numbers are separated by about an inch and only partially stamped at that. Also two of them have an added V on them, I have no idea what that indicates, hope this helps a little. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-03-2005, 08:39 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Frank et al, According to military marking instruction, the grips SHOULD be numbered. I doubt that there were long periods that the instructions were not followed, but workers do sometimes make mistakes. Probably more frequently grips would break and be replaced or upgraded by collectors. Certainly, grips with the wrong numbers, are not original issue. Unless fitted by someone very knowledable, one can usually spot a replaced grip by the fit and/or checkering profile. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

10-01-2005, 11:58 AM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	A very broad shotgun question, no one answer will cover the ages of Luger production, perhaps there is one era of Luger production that someone here can help you with...

10-01-2005, 12:00 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Some era lugers were marked, other eras were not, so you must give us the exactness of a era weapon, i.e. 1916 DWM or 1917 Erfurt or 1941 42. Ed

10-01-2005, 07:42 PM	#4
wworker User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry guys, I didn't know Lugers were that varied in the method of grip serialization. Ok, how about a byf Luger. How are the grips serialized?

10-02-2005, 01:15 AM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	This issue can become very foggy. You may have owned a Luger for 50 years and swear that the grips came with it from the factory. Having the last two digits (or the entire serial number) stamped inside the grip reinforces that feeling, but this can be faked. Sometimes one sees a worn Luger with fresh grips bearing high sharp diamonds, that is easy. The best I have been able to tell: Early lugers, 1900-1906 bore the serial numbers inside; 1908 commercials, militaries to 1912 (1913?) did not; post WW1 were all over the place; Simson's did, especially Lugers made by them; early Mauser Lugers did, but later ones didn't, especially with plastic grips, many police Mauser banners had only waffenampts stamped inside. These observations are stated only as a baseline, I'm sure many many exceptions can be voiced. In summary, it may be very hard to tell if the grips are original to the pistol, one must judge the overall wear of the pistol and match it to the grips.

10-02-2005, 02:38 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Don't care to dispute with my good friend the Doc, but by example--1911 DWM and 1911 Erfurt both with numbered grips, 1912 DWM and 1912 Erfurt both with numbered grips. My 1908 First Issue DWM grips aren't numbered, but I am not confident that they are originial, either. --Dwight

10-02-2005, 07:44 AM	#9
wworker User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	IÃ¢??m beginning to understand how every nuance of the Luger is important to its value. Grips can be difficult to understand as to whether or not they are authentic and original, but I have seen some excellent threads and posts here about them. With the number of reworks that were done to Lugers in generals, itÃ¢??s doubtful that all of the grips would be original. I have been able to spot Lugers with the new grips with the very well defined diamonds as drbuster wrote. Many of these Lugers also have Mec-Gar magazines indicating multiple replaced parts.

10-02-2005, 09:59 AM	#11
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Tom (TH), I'm glad you said with many exceptions!! Mausers are difficult because the on again off again grip numbering system is tough to get a grip on (pun intended). The original K-date grips were numbered, then it appears that sometime in 1935 (G-Date) they stopped numbering grips, starting up again in 1937, then discontinued numbering somewhere in 1939 and starting up again in1940. Numbers continued to the end of production in 1942 (with the exception of the Black Bakelite Grips). Edit remark: During the periods that the grips weren't numbered, a few were and the periods they were numbered a few weren't!! Don't know why!!!

10-02-2005, 10:36 AM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	As I said, there are MANY exceptions, assuming the grips are original! And of course, with a nod to Dwight, just about every Erfurt I've seen does have numbered grips, some with even non-matching numbers!

10-03-2005, 10:50 AM	#15
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Tom, I understand your SHOULD comment. However, data from my small group and from other major Military Mauser Collectors verify the majority of late G-Dates, 1936 and 1939 Code 42 Luger Grips were not numbered!! I do understand about replacement grips, but it would seem that I would expect to see the same trend on collectable Lugers from other periods as well. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that only those pistols had defective grips that needed replacement!!

10-03-2005, 12:49 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I would like to add this to the FAQ that I never finished, so we'd need to know; pre-WW1 commercial WW1 Weimar DWM Weimar Simson WW2 / Nazi Mauser WW2 / Nazi Krieghoff Which were numbered and which ones weren't? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-03-2005, 01:18 PM	#17
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Ed, IIRC, the breakout is like this: Pre-war commercial: Numbered (Not absolutely certain here) WWI-Numbered through about 1916 Weimar DWM-If new production, numbered Weimar Simpson-numbered WW2/Nazi Mauser-Numbered mostly but some exceptions in certain serial number ranges WWII/Nazi Krieghoff-G and Early S date numbered; late S-date through 1944, unnumbered. Tom A

10-03-2005, 03:01 PM	#18
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Tom A, sorry but really wrong on the the Military Mausers!! Please read my posts on the ranges!!

10-03-2005, 03:28 PM	#19
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Frank, Was using a relatively small sample (My KM pieces) and an unreliable memory. I apologize to all for my error. Tom A

10-03-2005, 03:37 PM	#20
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Tom A. Not a problem!!