Alphabet Commercial Survey

Dwight Gruber · 10-31-2005, 11:19 AM

If I remember correctly, in 1923 the U.S. import laws changed from requiring imported objects be marked GERMANY to being marked MADE IN GERMANY. I have decided to expand the Commercial serial number database to include the Alphabet Commercial series looking for this feature particularly, to see if it provides a data point to help refine the production dates of these guns.

So, dust off your Alphabet Commercials please, and send me the following information:

serial number (full, with suffix)

GERMANY, MADE IN GERMANY, or NO export mark

caliber

serial numbers, hidden or exposed

commercial proof?

Also note any noteworthy features, i.e. if it has a barrel other than 3 3/4 in; if it is a Police gun; if so what the unit mark is (if present); if it has any kind of right-receiver acceptance mark; etc. Also, be sure to check your John Martz conversions, as he commonly utilizes Alphabet Commercials as donor guns.

As usual, please post the information here or send it to me at [email protected]. I know there are a lot of these guns out there, I very much appreciate all of you taking the time to check out your Lugers and pass the information on.

--Dwight

Fleming · 10-31-2005, 10:07 PM

Dwight, My alphabet Luger is as follows. #2681d all matching, bbl. and magazine base marked Germany, .30 cal, exposed numbers, no commercial proof, extractor marked loaded, 6 inch bbl. with navy sight base. Hope you find this useful........Fleming

Dwight Gruber · 10-31-2005, 11:13 PM

Fleming,

Thanks much. Yours is a Military pistol converted to Commercial (exposed numbers), not strictly an Alphabet Commercial (range is i through v), but I'm noting these as a matter of course. Are there any markings on the bottom of the barrel? or right receiver?

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 11-01-2005, 12:04 AM

email sent Dwight

policeluger · 11-01-2005, 12:28 AM

DG....how soon do you need this, I just do not have the time right now, but plan on a complete inventory of all my guns by 1st of Dec.....could I just give it to your then??....sorry

wlyon · 11-01-2005, 11:10 PM

Dwight. Send you some data under Gereral discussions. Bill

Dwight Gruber · 11-01-2005, 11:59 PM

Howard,

No time problem, my Commercial survey has already simmered much longer than I anticipated, so I'll be glad to get the info when it comes in. Thaks much.

--Dwight

Fleming · 11-02-2005, 08:34 PM

Dwight, Underside of the bbl. has only the serial number no suffix. On the right side are the same four proof marks as my 1917 military that is number 69 no suffix. What exactly is an alphabet Luger? I do have another commercial, 5176n, .30 cal. hidden numbers, Germany on rt. receiver and magazine bottom, 3.75 bbl. crown n lt. receiver. I always called it a 20 commercial........Fleming

BogeyB · 11-02-2005, 08:56 PM

Dwight,

My alphabet has the following:

s/n 4033 o

GERMANY on left frame rail

Hidden s/n's

C/N on frame, underside of barrel, and breechblock

7.65 mm

Standard barrel length etc.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Dwight Gruber · 11-03-2005, 01:22 AM

Mike,

Thanks much for the info.

Fleming,

Alphabet Commercial is the term many collectors now use for the variation you are referring to as 20 Commercial. It is characterized by upright c/N proof on left reciever, 3 3/4 in. barrel, in .30 Luger. Serial numbering is 1-4 digits with a letter suffix, i through v. These Lugers are new DWM/BKIW production (differentiated from reworked Imperial military Lugers), manufactured between 1921 and 1930. And thanks much for the infoon your gun, as well.

--Dwight

Lyn Islaub · 11-03-2005, 10:27 PM

Dwight,
Check your PMs.
Lyn

Dwight Gruber · 11-04-2005, 03:33 AM

Lyn, got it, thanks.

--Dwight

David Jackson · 12-12-2005, 01:47 AM

Hi Dwight;

I think this has been asked before: but ...

Is there any where your survey results are posted?

Thanks;

David Jackson

Dwight Gruber · 12-12-2005, 04:19 AM

David,

The short answer is, not yet. I had hoped to have a public version and some observations before now, I'm still working on both and intend to have results up perhaps March or April. I know thats a long time, its longer than I intended, but the database is well in excess of 4,000 guns and I keep wanting to do more with it.

If you have any specific question which I can apply the data to, I will be happy to try to answer.

As far as the Alphabet Commercial-GERMANY/MADE IN GERMANY question is concerned, the small sampling I have so far suggests that, as new production, they did not adhere to the U.S. MADE IN GERMANY import law change.

--Dwight

sabbathmusic · 10-19-2010, 11:13 AM

serial number (full, with suffix) 9025 lazy lower case n

GERMANY, MADE IN GERMANY, or NO export mark/ Germany no export mark

caliber mine is a .30

serial numbers, hidden or exposed sideplate and takedown suffixes are hidden

commercial proof? It has that little eagle thing, what does a commercial proof look like? mine has 4 proofs on the receiver right side and nitro proofs.

Now a question for you, do these Lugers typical have strikers with no serial number and void of grease grooves?

10-31-2005, 11:19 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Alphabet Commercial Survey If I remember correctly, in 1923 the U.S. import laws changed from requiring imported objects be marked GERMANY to being marked MADE IN GERMANY. I have decided to expand the Commercial serial number database to include the Alphabet Commercial series looking for this feature particularly, to see if it provides a data point to help refine the production dates of these guns. So, dust off your Alphabet Commercials please, and send me the following information: serial number (full, with suffix) GERMANY, MADE IN GERMANY, or NO export mark caliber serial numbers, hidden or exposed commercial proof? Also note any noteworthy features, i.e. if it has a barrel other than 3 3/4 in; if it is a Police gun; if so what the unit mark is (if present); if it has any kind of right-receiver acceptance mark; etc. Also, be sure to check your John Martz conversions, as he commonly utilizes Alphabet Commercials as donor guns. As usual, please post the information here or send it to me at [email protected]. I know there are a lot of these guns out there, I very much appreciate all of you taking the time to check out your Lugers and pass the information on. --Dwight

11-01-2005, 12:04 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	email sent Dwight __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-01-2005, 11:10 PM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	Dwight. Send you some data under Gereral discussions. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-02-2005, 08:56 PM	#9
BogeyB Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mc Donough, GA. Posts: 420 Thanks: 0 Thanked 222 Times in 96 Posts	Dwight, My alphabet has the following: s/n 4033 o GERMANY on left frame rail Hidden s/n's C/N on frame, underside of barrel, and breechblock 7.65 mm Standard barrel length etc. Hope this helps. Mike __________________ MAGA Always!! NRA Benifactor, GCA

12-12-2005, 01:47 AM	#13
David Jackson User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Magalia, California Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Dwight; I think this has been asked before: but ... Is there any where your survey results are posted? Thanks; David Jackson __________________ Sincerely; David Jackson

10-31-2005, 10:07 PM	#2
Fleming New User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, My alphabet Luger is as follows. #2681d all matching, bbl. and magazine base marked Germany, .30 cal, exposed numbers, no commercial proof, extractor marked loaded, 6 inch bbl. with navy sight base. Hope you find this useful........Fleming

10-31-2005, 11:13 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Fleming, Thanks much. Yours is a Military pistol converted to Commercial (exposed numbers), not strictly an Alphabet Commercial (range is i through v), but I'm noting these as a matter of course. Are there any markings on the bottom of the barrel? or right receiver? --Dwight

11-01-2005, 12:28 AM	#5
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	DG....how soon do you need this, I just do not have the time right now, but plan on a complete inventory of all my guns by 1st of Dec.....could I just give it to your then??....sorry

11-01-2005, 11:59 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Howard, No time problem, my Commercial survey has already simmered much longer than I anticipated, so I'll be glad to get the info when it comes in. Thaks much. --Dwight

11-02-2005, 08:34 PM	#8
Fleming New User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, Underside of the bbl. has only the serial number no suffix. On the right side are the same four proof marks as my 1917 military that is number 69 no suffix. What exactly is an alphabet Luger? I do have another commercial, 5176n, .30 cal. hidden numbers, Germany on rt. receiver and magazine bottom, 3.75 bbl. crown n lt. receiver. I always called it a 20 commercial........Fleming

11-03-2005, 01:22 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Mike, Thanks much for the info. Fleming, Alphabet Commercial is the term many collectors now use for the variation you are referring to as 20 Commercial. It is characterized by upright c/N proof on left reciever, 3 3/4 in. barrel, in .30 Luger. Serial numbering is 1-4 digits with a letter suffix, i through v. These Lugers are new DWM/BKIW production (differentiated from reworked Imperial military Lugers), manufactured between 1921 and 1930. And thanks much for the infoon your gun, as well. --Dwight

11-03-2005, 10:27 PM	#11
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Dwight, Check your PMs. Lyn

11-04-2005, 03:33 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Lyn, got it, thanks. --Dwight

12-12-2005, 04:19 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	David, The short answer is, not yet. I had hoped to have a public version and some observations before now, I'm still working on both and intend to have results up perhaps March or April. I know thats a long time, its longer than I intended, but the database is well in excess of 4,000 guns and I keep wanting to do more with it. If you have any specific question which I can apply the data to, I will be happy to try to answer. As far as the Alphabet Commercial-GERMANY/MADE IN GERMANY question is concerned, the small sampling I have so far suggests that, as new production, they did not adhere to the U.S. MADE IN GERMANY import law change. --Dwight

10-19-2010, 11:13 AM	#15
sabbathmusic Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	serial number (full, with suffix) 9025 lazy lower case n GERMANY, MADE IN GERMANY, or NO export mark/ Germany no export mark caliber mine is a .30 serial numbers, hidden or exposed sideplate and takedown suffixes are hidden commercial proof? It has that little eagle thing, what does a commercial proof look like? mine has 4 proofs on the receiver right side and nitro proofs. Now a question for you, do these Lugers typical have strikers with no serial number and void of grease grooves?